Unlike some movies and TV shows, we’re comfortable talking about abortion. Yes, we’re naming names. On this episode of Hearsay, we explore how abortion has been depicted over the decades in the media, from Maude to Jane the Virgin and (nearly) everything in between. And then Leila Abolfazli, a lawyer and abortion expert at NWLC, talks to us about why these depictions are so important, and the three movies that motivated her to join the fight for abortion access.
Unlike some movies and TV shows, we’re comfortable talking about abortion. Yes, we’re naming names. On this episode of Hearsay, we explore how abortion has been depicted over the decades in the media, from Maude to Jane the Virgin and (nearly) everything in between. And then Leila Abolfazli, a lawyer and abortion expert at NWLC, talks to us about why these depictions are so important, and the three movies that motivated her to join the fight for abortion access.
For more information on abortion in media:
We Testify - Abortion Onscreen Awards Abortion Onscreen — WE TESTIFY
ANSIRH - Abortion on TV and Film Abortion on TV and Film | ANSIRH
Glamour article about abortion representation in TV: Here's Why the Abortion Storylines on Jane the Virgin and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend Matter | Glamour
Our watchlist of TV episodes with abortion plots and subplots:
Crazy Ex-Girlfriend: “When Will Josh and His Friend Leave Me Alone?” (Season 2, Episode 4)
Euphoria: “And Salt the Earth Behind You” (Season 1, Episode 8)
Jane the Virgin: “Chapter Forty-Six” (Season 3, Episode 2)
Maude: “Maude’s Dilemma” (Season 1, Episodes 9/10)
Scandal: “Baby It’s Cold Outside,” (Season 5, Episode 9)
Sex and the City: Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda (Season 4, Episode 11)
Hilary:
Hi, I am Hilary.
Lark:
Hi, I am Lark.
Jessica:
Hi, I'm Jessica, and we all work together at the National Women's Law Center. Welcome to Hearsay, where we deep dive into cultural moments that live rent free in our heads, and probably yours too. And today we're gonna be talking about abortion in the media and on TV. Not Smishshmortion, not the other option, not the choices. Abortion. It's very normal for us to talk about abortion and to say the word abortion. I mean, we read it, see it, talk about it, think about it every day at work. There's no stigma when we talk about it. It is present pretty much everywhere we look and we believe in healthcare and the fact that abortion is healthcare and that for all of us to truly be free, everyone needs abortion access. But obviously because of decades of rightwing extremists, abortion has turned into this whole smishshmortion It's turned into a mess.
It unspeakable into, yeah, it has turned into this whole elephant in the room. But we can't talk about the fact that there's an elephant in the room and in TV shows and movies too. It appears everywhere. Mm-Hmm. It's not just in spaces like reproductive rights spaces, gender justice organizations. It is everywhere. And we're currently in this critical moment. It's been over a year since Dobbs has overturned Roe. We are trying to gain more access to abortion and make sure that it's safe access. Make sure that it's unrestricted access. As a part of that movement, we can't let shame when Mm-Hmm. . Like we can't hide behind it. We can't use euphemisms for something that is healthcare. Right. We cannot use euphemisms for abortion. And so we were talking about like, in what ways have we seen abortion depicted in pop culture and media that have changed our perceptions on it before we worked here, that have made us scream, what the heck while we were working here? Or worse, . Um, and things that aged, well aged poorly. Things that have stood the test of time. Not everything does. No, not everything did stand the test of time. No. So we all had our own pieces that we wanted to talk about, and that's exactly what we're going to do today.
Lark:
I feel like even like shows and moments I thought about earlier, I didn't think about them in that way. Right. Like things when I saw them the first time, and then thinking about them now with how much we know and what we do. Yeah. I feel like I have such a different understanding and realization of what the depictions are.
Hilary:
Right. It wasn't hard to come up with a list of them though, for us. Right. This, this could be
Lark:
We were ready.
Hilary:
This will not be a 40 hour episode, , but it could have been.
Lark:
You're welcome. We spare you .
Jessica:
While we were prepping, we decided we wanted to do this episode. We each came with too many ideas. Um, and so we're gonna kind of talk about where we were impacted, why we were impacted, how, and like how we look back on it now, now that we are fully immersed in this work where we are constantly talking about it.
Hilary:
We each brought something from our, like favorite shows we've watched, or movies we've seen to talk about, but we've all watched one thing. What Yes. Is considered the seminal abortion episode. The first one, though, I found out it wasn't technically the first one. Oh, there was one, an abortion plot line, I guess on an like 60s soap before that. But in 1972, there was an episode of Maude, which none of us were alive for , though. I was born in the seventies. So
LarkL
There we go.
Jessica:
We wanna make it clear that we, we were not alive.
Lark:
. Let that, let the record reflect. This is history to us.
Hilary:
We were not alive in 1972. Yes. Uh, but some of us were close. Anyway, . So this episode of Maude that was created by Norman Lear, who is like, you know, this revered, uh, renowned TV creator, made all in the family. Mm-Hmm. , which also dealt with hot button issues. Mm-Hmm. Which I.
Jessica:
And it was a spinoff of that.
Hilary:
Oh yeah. In the episode, Maude is a grown woman, 47 with a husband. She's remarried. She has an adult daughter who lives with her, who's divorced, and has an 8-year-old son. So this is like their, their household with, with the four people in it. And Maude discovers she's pregnant and it, reacts as if it's the end of the world. And like full, like, you know, melodrama like hand to her, her forehead, you know, fainting. I can't believe I'm pregnant. And just horror, horrified. Um, and then, you know, it sort of proceeds from there where everybody's talking like, are you gonna have this baby? There's some assumption and it's, you know, Maude’s grown daughter who's like, you don't have to do this. It's 1972. Abortion is legal
[Maude Clip]Maude’s daughter:
Mother, listen to me. It's a simple operation now, but when you were growing up, it was illegal and it was dangerous and it was sinister. And you've never gotten over that. Now you tell me that's not true.
Maude:
It's not true. And you are right. I've never gotten over it.
Maude’s daughter:
It's not your fault when you were young, abortion was a dirty word. It's not anymore.
Hilary:
I'm wondering what you both thought when you, you saw it.
Jessica:
Yeah. The fact that they ended up saying abortion. Mm-Hmm. like the word abortion. Mm-Hmm. . And granted it was from like the lefty daughter Yeah. , um, who said it, but then none of her friends of ages, genders were necessarily asking her to lean one way or the other. I thought that the conversations around it were obviously there was the whole like a, oh, why would I talk to my husband about this? Mm-Hmm. Kind of aspect of it for like most of it where he was like, or like Yeah. We know what the other person's thinking. Yeah. 'cause you need that for tv. Right. Um, but
Hilary:
that's the situation and that's right. It's just a comedy. Right.
Jessica:
. Um, but when they finally talked about it, there was no of anything they were trying to challenge mon to be like, Hey, like, even though you know it's legal, you are dealing with your own shame around it. Right. Which is fine. Yes. But also you should know that you should be, you should try to put that aside if you know that this is in your best interest.
Lark:
Yeah. I thought the same thing. I thought how supportive all the people in her life were of like, yes, this is a banana situation for you to be in, and whatever you choose is the right thing, I thought was not what I was expecting from that episode. I thought everything they talked about are literally things we're saying today. Right. Like the whole birth control conversation talking about, well, men are getting more vasectomies. Where is marital birth control? Same thing we saw right after Dobbs. Um, the age conversation I thought was really interesting. Yeah. How they kept talking about the Eagle Scout when I am 62 and how differently we think of women in pregnancy. Like Yeah. In pregnancy now. And it reminded me of when Sex in the City, the, and just like that came out, the women's ages at the start of, and just like that are the same ages as Golden Girls
Jessica:
Crazy.
Lark:
And how different we. The characters. Yeah. Yeah. How different we look at women in that way now versus in Golden Girls
Hilary:
Yeah. Maude is 47 in this.
Lark:
Right. Yeah. I was doing the math of the, and
Hilary:
Which she considers, you know, dead.
Lark:
Like Yeah. . Literally. Which is, so that was like, uh, I expected that, but not, it was really interesting how much that was made a big point. And I think the part that hurt the most was the daughter being like, we're free now.
Hilary:
I know. I know.
Lark:
Like, it's legal. You can do it. And it's, it hurts so much to be like, yeah, we, that's what we thought. And here we are now. Like it's so, I was not accepting that it's not a dirty word anymore. Yeah. And we're in a worse spot than we were when Maude got her abortion.
Hilary:
I felt exactly the same way. I'm watching this and this is like this special episode and like, they're making this on purpose. Right. They're making this to, to take a stand, to like, to have a dialogue about this like, issue they know is like not new in the country, but it's time to talk about it. That's what they wanna do. That's what Norman Lear does on his shows. And it felt like such a beacon of we are moving forward. Mm-Hmm. , this is the new thing. We are naming what the world is and this is how it'll be from here on out . And then to know what follows in the 50 years after. And we're gonna go through a lot of it with these TV shows and movies is, is a regression. Mm-Hmm. that they could say, I mean, we've made jokes about shush, smishshmortion. I can't even say fake, I can't even say the wrong word that they want me to say. Instead of abortion. We're so trained here, but, uh, we've moved backwards so much and it's so disheartening. But that like, what a step this could have been. And, and here we are now. Mm-Hmm. instead. But they're, they're not all, not all the depictions we have to talk about are bad I guess.
Lark:
No, no, no. I mean, I don't know. I feel like mine were not great.
Jessica:
When we were brainstorming for this. I instantly thought about Sex and the City. My mom watched it and I grew up watching it with her, but obviously not fully understanding. Mm-Hmm. like the gravity of what was happening until I did a full rewatch earlier in 2023. So I was watching. It got to the episode where Charlotte was still with Trey and she was struggling to, to get pregnant. Um, but then Miranda gets pregnant unexpectedly. Mm-Hmm. She gets pregnant unexpectedly.
Lark:
Steve
Jessica:
by Steve, who I love Steve. That's a whole other conversation.
Lark:
Justice for Steve. Death to Trey. Justice For Steve.
Hilary:
One ball Steve.
Jessica:
One ball Steve
Lark:
Yeah. It was the pity. Their pity hookup.
Jessica:
That was her thing. She's like, it was a, it was a pity hookup with my lazy ovary and his one ball. . How was, how did this happen? Mm-Hmm. . Right. Um, and so they're having this conversation, the four of them, and Miranda is very like disheartened, but very practical about it 'cause Charlotte's like, well, what's the alternative? And Miranda just like, looks at her like, you know what the alternative is. And Charlotte is completely appalled, upset, partially slash mainly because of what she's going through. Because, and I think throughout the episode she's talking about it like, how did Miranda get pregnant so easily? Mm-Hmm. . Right. And I've been trying so hard and been wanting it versus Miranda didn't want to, it prompts more abortion conversations Mm-Hmm. throughout the episode where Carrie's like, yeah, I've had one. But they're still not saying abortion. No, they're not saying, and it's HBO, you can show butt cheeks, but you can't say abortion.
Lark:
The other wild stuff they showed on that show and they didn't do that.
Jessica:
Like the episode Oh my god. Episode where they went to the, like the sex coach.
Hilary:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica:
Crazy. But you can show that right on tv.
Hilary:
Right. And what a message that's sending to say we can, we can like every dirty double entendre you could ever think of. Mm-Hmm. every sex scene, every bit. You know, like it reveled in pushing an envelope it thought, but somehow it was too hard to say the word abortion.
Jessica:
Right. Which is what we look back on now. Like it aged well, but also it didn't, the show. Mm-Hmm. In general. But it's when we're gonna narrowly focus on this aspect, um, 'cause Miranda did end up keeping the baby, the baby ends up being Brady. Charlotte probably would've stopped being friends with her, or at least not talked to her for a while if she had decided to get the abortion. Right. Which, what kind of solidarity and support, right? Is that Yeah.
Lark:
I recently watched that episode not too long ago and I was like, oh no.
Jessica:
It was bad. Yeah. I was like, why don't we talk about how bad so bad this was when I watched it again. 'cause I don't, I think I remembered like bits and pieces, but watching it in the context of the whole show and then watching it now that I work here Yeah. I was like, this is bad.
Hilary:
Well, and we don't even, I, I mean I think that's another throughline through this is that we are, right now, we're looking for it because we know we need it. Mm-Hmm. , we need people to share abortion stories. We need people to be, but like for so long we just all accepted these messages, like these shaming messages in our media without questioning them. Even things we liked, even things we'd label as feminist, which I think arguably Sex and the City tried to be so Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. It's to me like how insidious it all is, you know.
Lark:
I watched two that did not age well at all. The two I'm, that came to my mind were Juno and Knocked Up and I mean, Juno was, broke the internet broke the world. Mm-Hmm. had such a claim. It won all the festivals. It gave us Elliot Page. It like, did all these amazing things and was like the pinnacle of indie movies that I think we generally like to believe are left leaning, you know, are showing the stories in a gritty, like real raw way. And it's so bad, it's so, so bad. it was on TV when I was home recently, and it was so awful. The conversations about quote choices, it falls into every single trope of like anti-abortion rhetoric and bullshit
Hilary:
Like teen mom stuff.
Lark:
Yes. Of like, well, we'll just take care of you. You know? Like, let's find a nice family to take care of the baby. Like, it's, it, it's not about what the op, like what's gonna happen after or what it's your choice and opportunity to do that. Um, Knocked Up I also, so much of that aged poorly, the body image shaming stuff is so gross in that movie, which was of the time, but I did not remember so much of that because she's Katherine Heigel plays like the news anchor, like e-news host person. So that's.
Hilary:
I forgot about that.
Lark:
And they like, because she doesn't tell which that goes into like Pregnant Workers Fairness Act. Yeah. Because she doesn't tell them that she's pregnant for a long time because she doesn't wanna get fired, but they just think she's like getting fat. So they tell her to lose weight and then she,
Hilary:
so they're just like Hollywood about it.
Lark:
Literally yeah. Um, but that too, she has that whole shmishsmortion scene with her mother at lunch and her mom's like, women like us have choices. Like we, you know, we, there's things you can do. And it, they still don't talk about that. And they, it, it, it's so weird to think about the impact that movie would have because I think, I always think of it as this funny, you know, the Judd Apatow era, right. It's a funny feel good movie. It's on e-news every night. Like, it's funny. But we're sitting here watching this every single time and I don't think we often think critically about how much these movies hold a place in our heart and in our media and in the world and what that says to us and about us.
Hilary:
Well, so for my shows, I went back to November, 2016, which if you think about the timing of these airing, it was like two weeks after the election.
Lark:
Tough.
Hilary:
I didn't realize they aired within a month of each other. I'm talking about episodes of Jane the Virgin and Crazy Ex-girlfriend. Both not watched enough CW shows that I was, uh, fans of while they were airing. Mm-Hmm. . And both of them have these like, you know, the platonic ideal of abortion depictions on tv. And I hadn't realized why I picked them and why they both popped into my mind until I rewatched them. Mm-Hmm. . And it got really very emotional. But in both episodes of both shows, the characters who have abortions, one are happy and fine with them, but it's because they're both already moms and I'm the same age as them. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and I have two kids and I don't want another child and I would have an abortion
Lark:
Yep.
Hilary:
Instead of having another child at this point. But they're both beautifully depicted. Jane the Virgin, Jane's mom who had her as a teen. Mm-Hmm. . So she was 16 when she had Jane who the titular Virgin, I guess. . That's a weird sentence. Tit . Sorry everybody, uh, Jane's mom, you know, already had one kid when she didn't want to when she was 16. She of course says she doesn't regret it 'cause she's got her daughter and she's wonderful. Um, but she gets pregnant again and realizes like, I don't want this. And she even says this like beautiful line, like, I want the next 20 years to be about me. Like, I already did this once
Lark:
and she deserves
Hilary:
and she deserved it.
Lark:
Yeah.
Hilary:
And so we don't, she has a medication abortion. The bigger issue and the drama of it is really about telling her mother who's Catholic. Mm-Hmm. . They're a Catholic family. Mm-Hmm. and Jane’s Abuela, who's like not happy about it. And so when she finally, it kind of slips out, she tells her and they spend the rest of the episode not debating whether she should have had the abortion, but how do you talk and reconcile with your family when you're on two sides of like, of something and the conclusion was like, didn't didn't like your choice. Love you. Want you in my life. You're my daughter. And it's fine. Yeah.
Lark:
That's so beautiful.
Hilary:
What a great, right. And then it's pretty similar on Crazy Ex-girlfriend. Um, it's Paula who is a paralegal and decides she's gonna go back to law school. She has two like teen boys and, you know, okay, I'm having this third kid and I, even though I got into my law school and I got a scholarship and I'm gonna change my whole life in my forties here. No. Instead I'm gonna have this kid. And she just like, gives into it and then eventually realizes like, what am I doing? Mm-Hmm. like why, what stigma am I holding? Why am I doing this? And we don't even see her get the abortion. We don't hear any conversation. Just later she's in bed, the doorbell rings and her son, uh, calls down like, mom, I'll get it. Since you just had an abortion.
Lark:
Oh my god. It's like, that makes me emotional and I haven't even seen it.
Hilary:
Right. And like that line, we know this statistically that moms are the people who most often have abortions. And just like, I remember I was so happy at the time that when they were on, and I, I must have, you know, like, because of that November, 2016 period is like a, a mess that I must have. It's like, well, this is the world as it should be. And as it, and, and we saw what happened, right. Like since then with Dobbs, like the way that circles back to Maude of like, here we are, it's okay that how much that has in common and then how, how far we've fallen since then. It's like both inspiring and depressing all at once.
Jessica:
So we have been talking about all of these examples and to us, they serve almost as time capsules and also just like mile markers of where we were, where we are, where we want to go. So we wanted to sit down and talk to someone at the law center about this. And so I sat down with Leila Abolfazli. She is the Director of a National Abortion Strategy here at the law center. Um, and just kind of see like what her perspectives are now that we are post Dobbs and have had decades of abortion representation behind us.
Hilary:
So we're gonna ask her whether it's Juno's fault, basically Dobbs. Yeah.
Lark:
I'm willing to put it all on that.
Hilary:
Yeah.
Jessica:
The whole, the whole era.
Lark:
Mm-Hmm. . She's so great
Hilary:
Yeah.
Lark:
I can't wait.
Hilary:
Jealous a little. You get to talk to Leila.
Lark :
I know. FOMO .
[transition music]
INTERVIEW:
Jessica:
I'm so excited to be sat here with Leila Abolfazli, my colleague and the Director of National Abortion Strategy here at the National Women's Law Center. Leila joined the law center back in 2011, and in her time she's worked on an array of legal cases and worked to protect abortion rights all across the country. So very excited to have you here, Leila. Thanks for being here.
Leila:
Thanks Jessica. Thanks for having me.
Jessica:
Of course. How did you get involved in this to begin with? Like, what drew you to it?
Leila:
Well, in 2011 I was watching very closely what was then the defund Planned Parenthood fight where they were threatening to shut down the government, uh, because the government reimburses healthcare that Planned Parenthood provides. And so I realized I was following that much closer than I was following my day job and thought maybe it was time for me to make a switch and came over to the Law Center, even though I didn't know what it meant to be a legislative lawyer.
I took the plunge and, um, worked on a range of reproductive healthcare issues, uh, from that time and including abortion. But I also worked on birth control issues relating to the Affordable Care Act and the infamous Hobby Lobby case. And then have dealt with the range of attacks that have happened in Congress over the past decade leading up to, um, when the anti-abortion extremists were able to get what they wanted, which was to overturn Roe v. Wade.
Jessica:
You talked about how watching the Defund Planned Parenthood efforts in the early 2010s really influenced your desire to get involved in this work, but do you have like a memory before that of consuming other kinds of media where you saw abortion?
Leila:
Yeah, I, I would like to say dirty dancing is my earliest memory. Mm-Hmm. . Um, but it is not it, it is my earliest memory in that I watched the movie maybe a thousand times with my closest neighbor and made up 5 million dances to it.
But I actually had no idea about the abortion subplot for many, many years. What I think my earliest memory really was that year that Juno, The Waitress and Knocked Up came out. And what I was struck by was both the way each did or did not approach abortion and also the broader context of how women were portrayed and showed up in these conversations about pregnancy and the partners they were with and the people who were around them. It felt very constricted. The view of what happens when somebody faces a pregnancy they were not intending. And then the defunding Planned Parenthood fight, I saw parallels actually of just, we want to see one scenario and that's all we're gonna show you. And in the bigger conversation about the Planned Parenthood defunding fight, it is that women are not in charge of their bodies. And in those, that trifecta of movies, it was the pregnancies were a fun subplot to much more complicated, messy, it was the side plot, but in a way that I thought was a bit irresponsible that didn't really reflect how people go through these issues in their lives.
Jessica:
I remember like seeing clips of Juno, and I feel like that was also the era, like when, like, I don't know, in Glee and like in TV shows. So like, I was born in 2000 to age myself, . And so I feel like a lot of shows that I watched would have at least one episode where like abortion came up, whether or not it was an explicit, like, are you going to get an abortion? Or you're pregnant, have you talked about your options? Are you going to keep it? Like, stuff like that. Yeah. And it's like a very, like if you know, you know, but also it's usually immediately shut down.
Leila:
Yeah. that's right.
Jessica:
And it's like, like, no, of course I'm gonna keep it. Or why would you say that? Right. Or it's like very much met with like defensiveness.
Leila:
and, and, and there's a very helpful miscarriage that comes along the way to shut down any further need to talk about it. I remember that actually from Party of Five, so I will date myself there too, that there was a very intense episode about one of 'em faced an, uh, unplanned pregnancy. And it, I remember it actually, that is my first memory now that I think about it, that's my first memory where again, it was a very superficial conversation and they ended up dealing with it like they do in many shows where a miscarriage came and saved the day in terms of them having to actually wrestle with these more detailed nuances that is actually reflective of our lives.
Jessica:
So at the law center, we do a lot of work surrounding abortion in order to confront the stigma. And we even have a de-stigmatizing abortion campaign, which we call Destig internally because it is so hard to say de-stigmatizing, I've had to say this over and over again, but we have a campaign for it, um, on our social media and online to kind of try to bring it more to the forefront, talking about moments in pop culture, relevant moments in breaking down where stigma lies even in language that we don't even fully understand. And so do you think that in your role in the national strategy that de-stigmatizing abortion on a national scale, but especially in media representation is important and like how so?
Leila:
Yeah I, I think part of what got us here, right, was what you're finding out is that a lot of people have had abortions and you don't know about that. And why is that is one, like people shouldn't have to share their healthcare stories, right? You know, all this other healthcare people get and they don't talk about it. But two, it is stigmatized and shamed. And, and that is not just from the extremists, right? There's just been decades of othering that care. And I think in the end it's rooted, if you go back in the history of US attempts to restrict abortion care to the 18 hundreds, this really has to do with, uh, a broader conversation of gender equality in our country and the role of women in it.
And abortion in the end is about who decides about the bodily autonomy of, of a person. So it's really two issues, is that one, an ongoing inability in this country to really reckon with, uh, history of not having gender equality and really thinking through that and that abortion is a symptom of that. And so women's lives are pushed behind the curtains, they happen in the void, and then that means that people don’t know about it, think it doesn't happen to anybody else, and they all stay quiet. And so when we move forward and think about restoring the federal right to abortion, it is both a part of that broader narrative about who decides my future and my major issues about my own healthcare. And then also when it's abortion, how do we normalize that? And, and something that has just been so striking is, is how many people have gotten abortions we've heard since Dobbs, it's a lot. And so it tells you that it is normalized in people's lives. It's just not normalized in our public atmosphere. And so that will have to happen. And it seems like there's a moment here that we can capture it where people are recognizing it and they're able to be out there talking about it.
Jessica:
And since Dobbs, a lot of celebrities have come forward with their abortion stories, Phoebe Bridgers, Britney Spears, Kerry Washington, Busy Phillips, just to name a few. And I wanna know like how you felt when you heard and or read those stories. And if you think based on seemingly the increase in the number, if not like the scale of which these celebrities are, like Kerry Washington is huge. Britney Spears has been through a lot and is obviously huge. And so these celebrities who have had so many decades long careers are just now since Dobbs sharing their stories. And so I wanted to know how that makes you feel that seemingly more people are coming forward.
Leila:
It just confirms that abortion care happens a lot and it's very typical in people's lives. And so, you know, it's nearly one in four who will have an abortion in their life. And so what I'm more struck by is often the stories are very similar. Like I just, a lot of, a lot of the celebrity stories I will say are like, I just wasn't ready to be pregnant and I made the decision and I knew it. And which is kind of striking because some of them may have gotten care before there were 5,000 restrictions in place in states, or they were in states where there weren't restrictions. And so what's interesting now is as I wanna hear more of like, and here are all the hard hurdles I had to, because now the abortion story is the common story.
But like, let me tell you about what it was like in a state with many barriers to care, which you'll probably not see as many. Um, but what's interesting is, is again, the idea that these people have to come out with their story to normalize it. And we appreciate it, but it just confirms that this is happening in people's lives and why is it so carved out when so many have needed it? And, and it actually also says a testament to people will keep having abortions no matter what. Uh, it has been a thing a part of people's lives since the beginning of time. And through all the restrictions and laws and what are we going to do to fight for it to be back as a legal right for all of us, not just dependent on the state you live in.
Jessica:
For sure. I think there are different ways to address any problem, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so do you, do you think specifically that like having a more accurate representation or nuanced representation Yeah. Of abortion in teen movies and dramas and comedies. Do you think stuff like that would help? Or do you think like maybe marginally like what is your take?
Leila:
I mean, this is gonna be such an easy answer for me to say . All of it's gonna be necessary, but it really is, if you think about the impact movies have, right, they plant seeds. And as much as I joked about Dirty Dancing when I go back and think about it, and she was named after a Department of Labor secretary, was like the first woman Secretary of Labor. And so, you know, there's such deep feminist tones and dirty dancing that I wasn't aware of at the time. And then afterwards I was really thinking about it.
And so I, I think it's important for representation of normalizing that this happens. And what I liked what you said is, is like the nuances that people, it happens in people's lives. What we're seeing now at the stories that are coming out post-ops is the full range of stories that happen. And the more you hear about that, the more people are saying, oh, okay, I see that and I see this. And we're, so, you need that in the public no matter what. And if it's showing up in movies and in TV shows, just as other issues are showing up, it helps to really say, oh, so this does happen and this is out there. And that it really is actually a very small minority that opposes it because a problem thus far has been that that small minority has made them look really big. They take an outsized role in our society. And so maybe decreasing that will show like, people's lives are lives and things happen. And, and this is one of the many healthcare needs that people have over time.
Jessica:
For an example, it's like we know that a lot of people that have abortions are already parents, like they already have a child or children. And so I feel like when we see it on tv, it's like a teenager, a young person, an unmarried person, someone like, it's not the demographic that actually is getting abortions more often. And so I think it should be in media for all ages. Like it shouldn't just be limited to like teenagers. Like now that you're maybe sexually active, you should know about abortions. But that and a show for like 40 somethings, 30 somethings parents,
Leila:
I think yes and no. Mm-Hmm because it is true that if you're gonna reflect young people having abortions do that accurately, right? Which is to show the many barriers that they face and show that, you know, half of abortion care is medication abortion. Like there's a whole ways that we can improve and Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health, ANSIRH has reports on this on a yearly basis and talking about how it shows up and that Renee Bracey Sherman talks a lot about this, about how they don't accurately represent the people getting abortions. And often it's women of color and they don't portray that. And so the parenting piece is a really interesting one that actually, you're right, people don't understand that piece. And so in terms of education, they can make some real impact, but it is also important to say young people do, and here's what it's like for them. And so I, you know, it, it actually what you're saying is it just shows you the dearth of storytelling we have and who is telling that storytelling.
And it makes me excited now to think about how much better storytelling we have in the media and podcasts everywhere. And hopefully that's something that can come out more. Mm-Hmm. and people have an appetite that it is, it is working parents, it is young people, it is older people who had not planned on a pregnancy. And so really the end message should be like, why is anybody else having a role in that decision? When you really think about it is every situation where abortion pops up. And so just leave people alone
Jessica:
For sure. Based on what you have seen, obviously since the Juno, Knocked Up, Waitress trilogy Yeah. Which is not a trilogy, but in your mind you probably
Leila:
Yes. Very much was.
Jessica:
Think of it as a trilogy, have you seen a good representation of abortion in media?
Leila:
I did not consistently watch Grey's Anatomy, but I did watch the episode was Dr. Christina Yang gets an abortion and she's with her partner and gets pregnant and doesn't wanna be and gets the abortion. And I think I have vague memory, I should say. I haven't gone back to it. Well, I don't really remember much about the procedure and how they play that out. Like was it this, I don't remember it being a very scary thing and she kind of has it and it's over and he's there for her. He doesn't agree with it. He wants to have the child. But what I remember is it is part of a broader conversation that they have in their relationship about their future together, that they want different things. And so again, it's not the story, it's a part of their lives. And I thought that that was well done. And as we know, Shonda Rhimes does not shy away. And so very appreciative how one person probably has had a huge impact of showing abortion in people's lives and, and how that story now, uh, Dr. Yang was, you know, wealthy, doctor, privilege, et cetera.
Like so again, doesn't really represent the typical abortion patient, but was a, a woman of color and, and the conversation of like asserting for yourself. And that was a big thing that she was choosing her career and wanted to be a doctor for so long. And that was a big arc in that show. And I think they really at times struggled in showing that and being okay as a show showing that. But how that, the story of the abortion shows up there. Just to say, in the beginning of the pandemic, I went back to dirty dancing. I really needed it just to like feel good again. And reflecting again while they show that that was a, uh, a back alley abortion and it was dangerous, which is like the way they represented pre 1973 abortion care, which is very different how abortion care is today.
But what I liked is, is that it really picked up on power and privilege and how these things are intertwined with a much broader conversations of abortion because the dancing was people expressing themselves and having to hide that part of themselves because it was not accepted in the norm and in the boxes. So to me, again, abortion was a story there about a much richer fabric of people's everyday lives and who gets to say what is right and wrong. And if you watch the movie, they really try to say the dancing is wrong and they enjoy it so much. And so who gets to decide? So to me, I wrap everything back to gender stereotyping and gender equality. It is this much broader conversation of do you get to determine your own future or does somebody else.
Jessica:
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share all of your favorites, least favorites all of your experience with us today.
Leila:
Thanks Jessica. Had fun.
Jessica:
Thanks again to Leila for taking the time to talk with me today and for doing this interview for the podcast. Um, in the show notes, you'll find links and details for all the episodes of TV and pieces of media that we consumed for this. In case you wanna do a NWLC rewatch deep dive like we did. Thanks for listening. Tune in next week. Bye.
CREDITS:
Hearsay is a Wonder Media Network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis and Hilary Woodward. Our producers are Taylor Williamson and Autumn Harris. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and Maddy Foley is our editor, production assistance by Luci Jones and show art by Andrea Sumner.
[Blooper]
Jessica:
What was your story about Brady? .
Hilary:
So there's an awesome line in that scene where like, um, Miranda has to, you know, she has the baby. Mm-Hmm. . So she brings Brady to brunch. Mm-Hmm. . Oh yeah. And Samantha turns and goes, that baby's an asshole. Yeah. . And my friends and I just like will say that about babies and we both have kids, so like, I think that excuses us somehow.
Lark:
It does.
Hilary:
But like now, anytime you hear like a baby cry anywhere, we're just like, turn to each other. I'm like, that baby's an asshole.