Cheerleaders are a big part of our culture, from halftime performances at school football games to the longevity of Bring It On. They’re incredible performers and such an integral part of the gameday experience, and yet society often treats them like mere objects. We’ve seen so much progress in the ways jobs traditionally held by women are respected, but why are we still discounting cheerleaders, even the ones who work in the NFL? We talk with Melanie, a former NFL cheerleader, and Lizzy, a sexual harassment lawyer who helped take down Dan Snyder, the former owner of the Washington football team.
Cheerleaders are a big part of our culture, from halftime performances at school football games to the longevity of Bring It On. They’re incredible performers and such an integral part of the gameday experience, and yet society often treats them like mere objects. We’ve seen so much progress in the ways jobs traditionally held by women are respected, but why are we still discounting cheerleaders, even the ones who work in the NFL? We talk with Melanie, a former NFL cheerleader, and Lizzy, a sexual harassment lawyer who helped take down Dan Snyder, the former owner of the Washington football team.
For more information on the case involving the TIME’S UP Legal Defense Fund and Dan Snyder: https://nwlc.org/how-survivors-prevailed-against-dan-snyder-and-the-washington-commanders/
The Oversight Committee Report Melanie mentioned can be found here: https://oversightdemocrats.house.gov/news/press-releases/oversight-committee-releases-final-report-on-investigation-into-the-nfl-s
If you have experienced sex harassment or other sex discrimination at work, the TIME’S UP Legal Defense Fund may be able to help. For more information visit: https://nwlc.org/times-up-legal-defense-fund/legal-help-for-sex-discrimination-and-harassment/
Lark:
This episode features tough topics and we hope you take care while listening.
Hilary:
Hi, I’m Hilary.
Jessica:
I'm Jessica.
Lark:
And I'm Lark. Welcome to Hearsay where we deep dive into the cultural moments that live rent free in our heads and probably yours too. Today we are being cheerleaders, biggest cheerleaders. We are talking about cheer, dance, um, spirit squads. I was a cheerleader, a dance team member in college. I was a dancer my whole life growing up. Um, I feel like there's all these movies and depictions of cheerlead–you know, every show has a cheerleader in it. Every–
Hilary:
Every high school show.
Lark:
Yeah, every high school show is a cheerleader in it. Um, I mean, Bring It On is the quintessential cheer movie, which high highs, low lows. I feel like I love that movie. It is a cultural moment that will live on forever. But I do feel like Bring it On was like the moment people recognize cheerleaders as people and…
Hilary:
Well it had a message which was like, we're athletes and this is hard.
Lark:
Yes. And I think comes through.
Jessica:
It does. Like, clearly they put in work and they talk about like the choreo, the choreography aspect. Which I think a lot of people don't know about, I think it's literally they think it's just like the standing.
Lark:
Yeah. Rah rah.
Jessica:
At my high school there was sideline cheer and then competition cheer. They're two separate things. And I was always like, competition cheer is a sport. Like, I feel like you can argue if sideline cheerleading is a sport when they kind of sometimes do stunts, but competition cheer when they're like running around and flipping and doing all the things. They're training. It takes a very specific type of person and it is a sport.
Hilary:
Which we all learned from Cheer. That documentary, I remember–and for those who haven't seen it, right. It's a documentary about these two community colleges that are like basically the only two that compete in this one category at the National Cheer Association. I maybe making the name up.
Lark:
Yeah. NCA
Hilary:
NCA's, like annual competition in, uh, Daytona Beach? So iconic. Them in the ocean.
Lark:
Daytona Beach, sure is. Um, band Shell is up 24/7. It's always–it’s just there in Daytona.
Hilary:
So they're going to Daytona. But they, and it like the show, you don't realize as you're watching it, it's like they're gonna get there because only two schools compete. And it's like they're the only two that are at this leve at this junior college or community college level. What seems clear to me watching is like, here are children and they are, you know, they're in college, but they are children still to me, whose like, are vulnerable in some way. Like, their lives are hard and this gives them a way to achieve and compete. But it comes at a cost, mostly of their bodies. A little bit of their minds. But like, they are just getting hurt at an, an alarming rate in this series.
Lark:
And again, I think it's, it was interesting to watch that because it was like, yeah, that's how it is. You have like one coach who's been there forever and like revamped the program and is heralded no matter what they do. Which is so common in so much of cheer and dance. But also it was interesting because I think for once it was kind of showing and valorizing the, the pain and the violence of that. I think of like Last Chance U the documentary about the football, uh, players at junior colleges. And again, they're vulnerable. They come from different backgrounds. Some of them have kids and it's like showing how hard they're working for this one little sliver of a spot. And that was interesting because I feel like we haven't had that in cheer and dance of where we're holding it to that same ridiculous, bad standard, you know, of glorifying the struggle and this hustle. And again, for what? They, some of them, you know, if you're a few of the top cheerleaders in that show, you also are doing competitive ultimate cheer on top of their school cheer…
Hilary:
Which exists, which is bananas
Lark:
… which is a whole other world.
Hilary:
Yeah, so like, in some ways the documentary is awesome, but it, what I don't think it does is it doesn't give you what, what would safety look like? What is success here? Like–
Jessica:
There's like, oh, there's nothing we can do about it. Right. It's just…
Hilary:
Well, right. Like there's, there's the reason people participate in any club. Like obviously like there's identity stuff, but there's also the part where it's like, I'm gonna learn how to do something. It's gonna be hard and then together we'll achieve. It's like teamwork. All the values you like, want your kids to grow up. Like, there's a reason all these things exist, but, um, I don't know what safety and like success look like in cheer the way it's depicted at least in this and, and the way it is for the NFL or for WNBA dancers or for like, what would that life be if they were respected and regarded and protected?
Lark:
Well 'cause it's not, it, like it requires pain and respecting mostly women is what that would come down to. That’s why we’ve never done that, yeah. There's a very specific reason. Um, and yeah the benefits you get are dangled over you. Maybe it is just performing at the bandshell in Daytona. Maybe it's, I'm comping your uniforms this year. Maybe it is a little $500 scholarship or the chance to perform in front of a cool choreographer. But the benefits and the risks you're taking and the vulnerability you have are not at all even and don't balance each other out at all. Um, you guys were not former Spirit Squad members…
Hilary:
Also not surprising about us.
Jessica:
I feel like my mom tried to convince me to do it at one point.
Lark:
Really?!
Jessica:
I don't know. I don't think it was that like, I think she wanted to be and like I have cousins that were. Um, I was a marching band and I remember in my host high school we resented, we meaning marching band specifically marching band girls resented cheerleaders for a lot of reasons. I feel like they would always tell us to play certain things. And I was like, that's not, that's not that works. Um, and also shut up! Just like, just petty stuff. But it's like, when you think about it, we were literally all there for the same reason– to cheer on a mediocre football team. We all just wanted to have minimally traumatic high school experiences.
Hilary:
Yeah. Just to get through.
Jessica:
And hang out with our friends after school and on Fridays and yeah we just had different ways of doing it.
Hilary:
It was just a different activity.
Jessica:
The misogyny and the real life world of like high school cliques, for lack of a better word, is so stupid.
Lark:
So stupid and so real. Like it's, well, so in college we were part of the marching band because most people I feel like know this, but most cheer and dance teams are not considered NCAA athletic teams at their schools. So while they perform at every single athletic event…
Hilary:
No scholarship?
Lark:
No scholarship. Well they, they practice for hours and hours a week. They don't get, um, access to like the nutrition experts or the study tables. Um…
Jessica:
Study tables is crazy. It's a table.
Lark:
Well, it's like, um, like tutoring.
Jessica:
Oh like study hours.
Lark:
Like I went to like a mid-major D1 school, the NCAA teams there had a certain amount of tutoring hours they had to fulfill. They got nutritionists, they got trainers. We had a coach and like had to practice on the facilities when no one else was using them, which means it's 9:00 PM or we have to go off campus to a gymnastics gym, which is not the like floor and format that we need to perform in, but we have to practice there. We'd practice at 6:00 AM just like other teams and we're just kind of always getting slotted into places where it fits. Yet we're expected to be at all these places and performing. And I loved performing. I, you all know, love attention. Um, it was fun. It was cool. But there was so much of, I think the like clique manifesting into people's ideas of what cheerleaders and dancers are there for as like these ornaments to just be cute and pretty and not actually work hard and not be smart and not actually have a say in how they're being treated. And I mean, that was just at the college level. Like the amount of times we would have, you know, people will take pictures with you and the amount of times there was dads like to their sons like, oh, go take a picture with the pretty girls. Or like with their daughters in the kid cheer uniform. Like squeeze you too tight in the picture or touch your butt, like weird gross stuff like that. And it's like–
Jessica:
It's disgusting.
Lark:
It's so gross. And that's just what people think you're there for. And that is, again, only at college. Like there's a whole professional cheerleader sector of work and all of these people, they're now, most of them are co-ed. Um, but they have to have other jobs like Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders, which are like the the best paid preeminence. Yeah. Highest paid. It's like 150 bucks a game. And like you have to—
Jessica:
A game?! That’s crazy.
Hilary:
We know when people are put into positions where they're not compensated fairly, that that is when abuse can run rampant. And like, so then putting into context cheerleading, which relies on the theory that we're here for you and your entertainment and our bodies literally exist to like please you. I just feel like the dynamic is so dangerous and you always, you can see some of that in some of the like depictions we've talked about, but like in pop culture, in in Bring It On in Cheer.
Jessica:
In Glee…
Hilary:
Yeah. Right. Yeah. In Cheer the documentary show Cheer. Which we could talk about for hours. Um, in um, even in like, you know, ESPN making televised versions of cheerleading competitions. Right. Like, which everyone's monetizing this. And yet what do they get?
Lark:
They get nothing.
Hilary:
They get injured. They maybe get on TV. But uh, um, all for the joy, but, but that also just leaves them vulnerable.
Lark:
Right. And there's, so I feel like we're seeing this kind of movement in industries that have notoriously been hostile and purposely made people vulnerable. And I feel like we're starting to see a collective realization and I guess understanding or focus for once we always knew it, but saying, hey, that is actually not good or great. And I do feel like the cheer and dance world is so behind on that. And it's like very few moments that we get something positive and a, a moment that is something a win and something to cling to. And I mean, I think up until like last year, um, I feel like the one that came to my most was the LSU dance team. They again, super good. There've been national champions before like 2021 I believe. They always compete nationally. Um, it's like their national championship. If you think of any other sport team not getting to go there, their school said we don't have the money. Sorry. Mind you, I believe that's when Joe Burrow was still at LSU and they were spending so much money on that. Um–
Hilary:
On football?
Lark:
Yeah, on football and on other sports that were not cheer and dance. And so the next year they came out with an insane routine. Everyone go look it up: “LSU Tiger Girls like a boy routine. We will link in the show notes 'cause it's incredible. It got millions of views on Tiktoks swept. It was like such a cool moment. There's people dressing up like them for Halloween, like a college dance team. Yeah. And I feel like that was a cool moment, but still nothing has changed. Right. Those girls, LSU Tiger girls don't get scholarships money now. They didn't get make money off that. Um, and I just think that it was like, okay, cool, we have this cool moment, but what does that mean? Which is why we wanted to talk about an even bigger win that happened more recently that we were really lucky to be involved with here at the National Women's Law Center. Um, if you did not know, um, in July of 2023, Dan Snyder, who is the now former owner of the Washington Commanders DC's NFL team, quite a few former Commanders cheerleaders, spoke out about harassment and sexual violence they faced at his hands. Um, the NFL did an investigation, I think it was like 18 months long, whatever, they claim they looked into stuff and after that they fined Dan Snyder $60 million. Um, which is incredible in a moment that does not happen very often at all for anyone who's faced harassment, but certainly not, um, for NFL cheerleaders or anyone in that space. Um, and the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund supported some of those survivors in their efforts to obviously fight back against Dan Snyder, but to, um, hold him accountable as well. Like we know he's not the only one out there doing this. And that's exactly why we wanted to talk to very special guests. One is Lizzy, who is senior counsel at the Times Up Legal Defense Fund. The Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund is housed and administered here at the National Women's Law Center. Um, they help survivors who face sex harassment at work. And Lizzy is such an important part of that team and was involved in this settlement case. And we're also gonna talk with Melanie, who was one of the brave survivors who spoke up against the harassment she faced while working as a Washington football team cheerleader. So I'm, yeah, I'm have so many questions and want to know everything about their experience and their point of view and how we got to this huge moment.
Hilary:
Yeah, and how to go forward for cheerleaders
Lark:
Yeah. Is it just gonna be another blip? Yeah. Justice!
Hilary:
Save the cheerleader, save the world.
Lark:
Yes.
Hilary:
That's from Heroes. Nevermind.
Lark:
Hello everyone. I'm here with Lizzy Vogel, senior counsel at the Time's Up Legal Defense Fund. And Melanie Coburn, a former Washington football team cheerleader and marketing director, also a brave survivor of Dan Snyder, um, during his ownership over the Washington Commander's NFL team. First and foremost, how are both of you doing? I'll start with you Lizzy.
Lizzy:
I'm happy to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
Lark:
Good. And how about you, Melanie?
Melanie:
I'm very excited to be here. Super honored that it just happens to be International Women's Day to boot.
Lark:
Yes. we didn't even plan it, but it feels right. So Melanie, today we're talking about the general world of professional cheerleading and dancing and kind of the hold it has in our cultural zeitgeist. I shared with Hilary and Jessica, I was a dancer my whole life. I was on my university's dance team, we call them spirit squads, um, at my school. But I'm wondering what kind of drew you into the art form, the sport, and then into pursuing it as a career field.
Melanie:
Well, what's interesting about that is that I actually was drawn to it because of football.
Lark:
Wow. Okay.
Melanie:
Yeah. So my high school football team were state champions, my sophomore, junior and senior years of high school and peewee football all the way up through high school. Um, it was just really deeply ingrained in the culture in my community, and it was really the only way I felt like I could be a part of it. And I looked forward to doing that. When I got to high school, I tried out, I had a gymnastics background. So I did have that athleticism going for me and it paid off because I made the varsity squad as a sophomore and I got to cheer on the state champs those three years in high school. And, you know, it really did catapult me into dancing in college and then getting into the NFL as well.
Lark:
Oh, that's so incredible. Yeah. I I think it's so interesting to see how people get in. Like, my family was a big football family. I have only brothers, but I was like not interested in football until I did dance. And then I was like, oh, it all makes sense now and I'm interested in it. Lizzy, I don't know if you were a dancer at all, but I do wanna know how you got into the legal field and if you did have any experience in the dance and cheer world before you got involved with this case we're gonna talk about.
Lizzy:
Yeah. So I was not a cheerleader or a dancer and am not currently one either. Um, I did go to a big football high school, so that sort of ethos of, of that was definitely part of my, um, experience growing up. But I was on the sidelines literally and figuratively. Um, I was not one of those people who was like, oh, I definitely wanna be a lawyer one day, but I probably should have known 'cause I was a child who was very, you know, focused on righteousness and was frustrated with moments of injustice and inequality. But I actually, um, after college I spent five years teaching middle school in the Bronx. And, um, there I really witnessed firsthand a lot of systemic racism and poverty and saw the impact that that had on my students and their parents. Many of whom, you know, worked in low paid jobs faced discrimination, um, based on gender, race, immigration status. Um, and then I, I went to law school to fight that, to advocate against that. And since then I've primarily worked with survivors of gender-based violence. And now that I've been at the Law Center, my work really focuses on issues of sexual harassment and sex discrimination in the workplace.
Lark:
Melanie, you talked about kind of how long you've been in the dance world and the cheer world, and I'm wondering how you've seen the sport, in terms of the recognition and respect or lack thereof that dance has received, kind of evolve in ebb and flow throughout the years.
Melanie:
You know, there was some class action lawsuits back in 2013, 2014, which really unveiled sort of the inequality in the game and how the cheerleaders were not even paid for practices and paid very little for games and were, you know, just sort of disregarded and, um, not valued at all. And so we've come a long way in terms of the ladies finally getting minimum wage. Which again, is minimum wage.
Lark:
Bare minimum. Yeah.
Melanie:
Um, but many of these squads are still required to have full-time jobs or be full-time students or mothers. And so, um, it's still looked at as a hobby and not a full-time job. So I, I still believe they're undervalued and there's a long way to go.
Lark:
Yeah. I know. I I think a lot of people just see cheerleaders and dancers and performers as kind of these objects or ornaments that are there to add onto the experience and don't really recognize all the work that goes into that and that they are athletes. And I think part of that is how we portray cheerleaders in pop culture. You know, we talked about Bring It On, which was kind of the first movie to show that cheer is work and how hard cheerleaders work. But in it, there still is a lot of things that are kind of, you know, tongue in cheek about it. There's a ton of sexual harassment in that movie. So many, I feel like plot lines about cheerleaders and gymnasts and dancers in TV and movies are centered around abuse, vulnerability and harassment. And it's just so much built into the humor of the plot of a lot of things. And I'm wondering, Lizzy, what you think that says kind of about how our culture understands and I don't know, maybe prioritizes or deprioritizes sexual harassment 'cause it's, it's so prevalent.
Lizzy:
Yeah. So, you know, I think we've made a lot of progress in the way we talk about sexual harassment in the last few years. Um, but I think particularly in fields where sort of the physicality of women's bodies plays a big role in that job. So whether it be, you know, cheerleaders, servers at restaurants, even women in the construction field, exotic dancers, there's sort of this feeling that, you know, well if women are putting their bodies on display, then they've somehow sort of consented to this behavior that is like clearly violates the law. You know, absolutely constitute sexual harassment. It's unacceptable regardless of what your job is. You are doing a job and you absolutely have a right to be free from sexual harassment. You absolutely have a right to be safe in the workplace. And I think, you know, this idea that we can't draw those lines and create those boundaries is just absolutely false. And anyone who is there to do a job has a right to be treated professionally with dignity, with respect, period. Um, and I think this sort of victim blaming culture, again, we've seen progress being made in the way we talk about that. And, and I think we have sort of a, a deeper understanding of how harmful that, that approach is. But I think we still see it very much, especially in some of these, these fields. And, you know, in my job, I talk to survivors all the time, and they're, they're still very much experiencing this.
Lark:
Yeah, it's sad. And Melanie, I'm wondering too, you know, what are you thinking and feeling when you see these depictions? You know, what are they getting right, what are they getting so wrong?
Melanie:
Yeah, I mean, the depictions and stereotypes are very disappointing, obviously. And I also think that there's a very big difference between being sexy and being sexualized. And unfortunately, the women of the Washington team paid the ultimate price of retaliation by the male leadership who could not control themselves around the women. They were the ones from the top down directing what the uniform should look like. The owner actually quoted as saying, “keep them skinny with big things.” And that was a demand from the owner of the team. So that is sexualization. Having women on a–be a part of a team where they wear their uniform proudly and they pose in a calendar and they are strong and beautiful and athletic. Having them be proud of that is okay. I think there's nothing wrong with that. I applaud that and, you know, I'm proud of my time in, in that team and in that sisterhood and I hope that the leadership moving forward will have more control and respect and honor the women that are in those positions. And hopefully, like you said, we've made progress, but there's a long way to go., and I hope that it's, it's only up from here.
Lark:
Yeah. Yeah. That's such a good distinction you made. There's a difference between being sexy and being sexualized. Um, but I mean, we know that like media mirrors culture, you both have talked about how that culture is so pervasive in the world of cheerleading. It's something we clearly talk about a lot on the show, which is why we wanted to talk to you both. Um, and I think really the kind of take down of Dan Snyder in late 2023 is a pinnacle example. And I'm wondering, Melanie, if can explain a little bit more about what led to this takedown moment?
Melanie:
I mean, there's so much out there. I suggest people visit the Oversight Committee’s website with their report. There are several depositions that list very clearly the just rampant toxic behavior that emanated from him and from the top. Um, yes, there was harassment, there was the assaults, there was the $1.6 million settlement that he had with a former employee. There were the videos that he created unknowingly, um, with our cheerleaders, you know, in very vulnerable positions at calendar shoots that, you know, were set to a soundtrack of his favorite songs. I, I said in my congressional testimony, it was, you know, like a frat party of billionaires. It was run like that. And, um, you know, when you have the leadership at the very top leading in that way, it just, it trickles down. And all of the male leadership that were underneath him, directly underneath him, and all the way through down to even some of the coaches had been um, you know, accused. And, and it's just, you know, there's so much more. It's just the tip of the iceberg.
Lark:
Yeah I mean for years, countless former Commanders employees came forward with stories of such a toxic, hostile work environment. there were so many stories of sexual harassment, abuse, racism, uh like financial misconduct, all of which Dan Snyder contributed to and cultivated. I mean there were nude images and videos of the cheerleaders taken without their knowledge or consent. There were countless incidents of male bosses, colleagues, even players making unwanted sexual advances and sexually inappropriate comments about women employees’ appearances. It really was just pervasive and it all came to a head in 2022 with Congress and the NFL both starting investigations into Dan Snyder. Melanie, could you share a little bit about your involvement?
Melanie:
Sure. So, um, I, it really just came to be that I became the voice of the sisterhood because many of the women who were exploited were silenced by NDAs through a mediation process that they went through when these lewd videos came to light. Um, initially I didn't wanna participate in it. Um, it's a very fearful thing to come forward and put yourself out there. And, Dan Snyder has a history of being very vengeful. And so I came forward really to keep their story going and to shed light on that. And the two words that I shouted at the top of my lungs for three years, it feels like were transparency and accountability. And really that's what we wanted. We wanted transparency. I wanted people to know the truth. I knew that there would be no accountability without that. And so, yeah, I chose to come forward and really just became a part of the small but mighty group that kept trudging forward. Um, and, you know, there were so many twists and turns and, and many times we thought it was over and we just kept persisting and declaring those two words.
Lark:
Yeah. And Lizzy, do you wanna talk a little bit about how Times Up Legal Defense Fund and yourself got involved in that case?
Lizzy:
Yeah. Yeah. So, um, the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund is housed at the National Women's Law Center, and we connect survivors of workplace sexual harassment and, and related retaliation with legal assistance and also provide funding to support that legal assistance and also to support public relations assistance, um, in, like I said, in those matters of workplace sexual harassment and related retaliation. Um, and so we did, the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund did provide legal and media assistance to Melanie and these other survivors. We just felt, you know, so fortunate to be able to support these survivors in pursuing this transparency and accountability that they so deserved.
Lark:
So most of the general public, and people see these big final moments in the news, right. They see the settlement, they see a court decision, and they, a lot of us don't get to see all the work that goes into getting to that moment. And you guys hinted at it a little bit that it was truly a Herculean effort and took a lot of time. But I'm wondering if you guys could explain a little bit more of what it looks like to get to a moment like this.
Lizzy:
Yeah. So I think, you know, it definitely varies case by case, survivor by survivor. So what we're talking about, um, in this situation wasn't so much, you know, an affirmative lawsuit that the survivors filed in court, um, but here, Commander survivors were asked to testify in Congress, were asked to be witnesses for the investigation that was conducted. They were contacted many, many times by the press over many years. And a lot of legal counsel goes into knowing what is, um, safe to answer in terms of, you know, both in the, the hearings and in the investigation. And then also when being contacted by the press, because you have to be mindful about your legal strategy. You have to be mindful about what you say, if it's opening you up to any sort of retaliation or defamation lawsuits. Um, Melanie mentioned that some folks signed an NDA, so of course they would need legal counsel about what, if anything they were able to say or if they, you know, weren't able to say anything. So one of the things that I think is really valuable about the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund is that we're trying to meet survivors where they are and with what they need in terms of their legal needs. So it's not just saying, you know, we're only going to provide support if you are bringing an affirmative case in this, in this situation, legal counsel was so critical to making sure that the survivors, felt safe in coming forward, even if that took a slightly different form than this sort of affirmative lawsuit.
Lark:
Yeah. And that's so much to take on in general, but to, like you said, Melanie, people have full-time jobs, they're mothers, they're parents, they're doing all of these other things. I can't imagine how scary and time consuming that whole process must have been.
Melanie:
Oh, it was a lot. But it was also, you know, super empowering and, you know, I was honored to be a part of this amazing team and I've really grown some amazing relationships out of it. and you know, I, I believe that this will be ultimately for so much good. I mean, the NFL is the most–it, it is society. Yeah. I mean, you look at the numbers of last year's most watched television shows, 97 out of the top 100 shows were NFL games. Um, you look at the numbers, revenue's growing, young audiences are growing. I mean, it's, it's ingrained in our culture. It's, it is America. And it's really important that we make sure that they're being held to a standard and that they're safe workplaces. So, you know, I was really empowered by that. That's sort of what kept my fuel going. And I'm forever grateful to the National Women's Law Center and this fund because truly we never would've been able to stand up against a billionaire without your support. And if this, these videos had come to light just a few years earlier, they probably would've been squashed and he would've gotten away with it.
Lark:
And he, you talked a little bit about retaliation, but he was going after people, I think is still going after a few people. So your bravery and trust of this, uh, moment in this settlement is really just can't be overstated at all. And it was a huge moment and such a long, long time coming. And it’s certainly not the end. We know, unfortunately, there are many more Dan Synders in the NFL and just out in the world. Um, but again, I can't thank you enough, Melanie, for your bravery, you, Lizzy, for your work. Um, not only to stay the course, which I can't imagine how hard that was at every point, to still sign on to keep going. Um, but to be so honest and open with your experiences I think is only going to help the cause. Um, I feel lucky that I get to talk with you guys and that you guys are willing to share this with our audience 'cause I think it is so important and not something people maybe think about often. Um, so I thank you. And I don't know if you guys have any parting words you wanna leave us with?
Melanie:
Sure. Yeah. I just encourage parents, get involved with your kids at the cheerleading level, get to know the coaches. Start to use the language that you know, they are in control of their bodies, teach them consent. All of these things that, you know, weren't as ingrained in our minds when we were growing up. Um, and also men, we need more allies. I'm so grateful for the incredible men who stood up to support us and came forward at great personal risk. Um, we wouldn't be here today without them as well. So it's, I, I applaud them. And, um, you know, on International Women's Day, it's nice to reflect on, on those allies that we have. And we just need more.
Lizzy:
I think I'll just add that, you know, especially as someone who is living in DC while this was happening, as you heard, for literal years, Dan Snyder saying, “I'll never sell this team. I'll never step down.” And I think that these brave survivors showed that they really could make the impossible happen. Um, and it's just, it's that kind of solidarity, um, with the right, you know, support is, which is so critical because speaking out is, is such a hard thing to do, um, that folks really can make the impossible happen. And I, I know that might sound corny, but I think it's important to be reminded of what bravery can do.
Lark:
Yeah I mean, people were wearing like fire Dan Snyder shirts for years, but coincidence, uh, he had to sell the team right after the settlement. I think that, I think that shows your power. So, um, thank you all again so much and I hope you guys have a great rest of International Women's Day, week and weekend. Thank
Melanie:
Thank you, Lark. Appreciate you.
Lizzy:
Thanks Lark
Lark:
We'll have links in the shownotes that give more details on Melanie and the other survivors' fight against Dan Snyder, the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund, and the oversight committee report that was mentioned. As always, thanks for listening.
CREDITS
Hearsay is a Wonder Media Network, production and partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis, and Hillary Woodward. Our producers are Adesuwa Agbonile, Grace Lynch, and Taylor Williamson. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer, and Maddie Foley is our editor, production assistance by Luci Jones and show art by Andrea Sumner.
BLOOPER
Lark:
Shout out marching band.
Jessica:
Shout out marching band.
Hilary:
Wait, what did you play?
Jessica:
Clarinet.
Hilary:
Wait, same!!
Jessica:
We literally had this conversation before because you were talking about your son playing the clarinet.
Hilary:
Yes, I know.
Jessica:
It was so cute.
Hilary:
Well, he like picked it up. He said, you'll help me? I was like, I remember nothing about how to play the clarinet.