Hearsay

Death to Girlboss: How Girlbossing Is Capitalism In Cursive Font. Ft. Lola Kolade

Episode Summary

The rise and fall of the girlboss movement was swift—and thank goodness for that. From LinkedIn hustlers to overly positive Instagram posters and Trad wives, a movement that was supposed to empower the “sHero” and “goal digger” in all of us has become the butt of every joke on the internet but still has such a hold over our lives. We talked with Lola Kolade about how we can truly overcome the girlboss within all of us.

Episode Notes

The rise and fall of the girlboss movement was swift—and thank goodness for that. From LinkedIn hustlers to overly positive Instagram posters and Trad wives, a movement that was supposed to empower the “sHero” and “goal digger” in all of us has become the butt of every joke on the internet but still has such a hold over our lives. We talked with Lola Kolade about how we can truly overcome the girlboss within all of us.

Read Lola’s substack The New New | Lola Kolade | Substack

Follow Lola’s tiktok lola | nyc writer (@lolaokola) | TikTok

Episode Transcription

Hilary:

Hi, I am Hilary.

Lark:

I'm Lark.

Jessica:

And I'm Jessica. And welcome to Hearsay where we deep dive into the cultural moments that live rent-free in our heads and probably yours too. And today we will not gaslight, we will not gatekeep, and we will not girlboss . We are talking about girlboss culture, which, if you have no idea what the heck we're talking about, we will kind of get into it a little bit more. But the, the whole idea is which we will go into, how we've each experienced it and how it's impacted each of our lives as we are a multi-generational group of hosts.

Lark:

Case you forgot!

Jessica:

In case you forgot. Um, but mainly talking about the idea of like, I am woman. Hear me roar. I must do everything and I can do everything. And because I'm a woman, I'm the most powerful being and because I'm the most powerful being, I therefore must do everything, including running myself into the ground until I die. And including multitasking and handling, taking too much and you know what I mean? I think its…

Hilary:

Right the full burnout.

Jessica:

Yeah. The full burnout. And it's like burnout. shmurn-out.

Lark:

But it's cute. 

Jessica:

Yeah. And I’m, I wear it well

Hilary:

Burnout in a nice like, you know, cursive script

Jessica:

Oh, you see me sweat, it's just glitter. I'm glimmering

Lark:

I don’t sweat. I glimmer. Yeah, shimmer. 

Hilary

I feel like the origin of girl bossing, I don't actually know this for a fact, but as someone who experienced it, who I guess had passed girl bossing by, by the time it came into, I don't know how to not say this and just not feel old, but it like, you know, I, I got to watch millennials like lose their minds basically. 

Lark:

And boy did we.

Hilary:

I was in a safe spot of like having kids and being too tired for that shit. You know, so like, I couldn't, I couldn't join, but I imagined it came from and certainly observed it, that it came from this like reaction to patriarchy. Mm-Hmm. . Which is like, we've been pushed down. No one can tell me no. I'm a division one athlete, I'm a board CEO. It's just like all power. And so no one can tell me no. I'm gonna like kick every bit of I can. And girl boss my way out of the patriarchy.

Lark:

Yes.

Hilary:

Spoiler alert. That doesn't work.

Lark:

 You can't. Yes.

Jessica:

The origins of it are well-meaning seemingly 

Lark:

Sophia Amoruso. I think is the first person to name it. The nasty gal, creator, founder. She wrote a book, #GirlBoss about her start. #GirlBoss by Sophia Amoruso was on 20% off clearance and Target when I moved to Washington DC in 2017. So I don't know, whenever that is, it came out 'cause I did buy it and it is still on my bookshelf.

Hilary:

Oh boy.

Lark:

We will get to that. Um but yeah, like I feel like she was the first person to name this kind of like, yeah, fuck the patriarchy. I'm doing it my way. And I'm scrappy and I can hustle and look cute and I'm a woman and I can do it.

Jessica:

So we're gonna get into like, yes. It had I guess some seemingly quote unquote humble beginnings, but like how it can very easily be a mask for something else. How it can be unproductive, how it can be destructive. And what are better ways to still channel like our power ss women. And also like combat the patriarchy while still taking care of ourselves. That's what we're getting into today. Um, so Hilary Lark, like please tell me about your experiences with Girl bossing. I know we kind of already gotten a little bit.

Lark:

I am so girl boss coded. I say I'm a reformed girl boss. I, like I said, I have the books still. I used to have all the quotes painted on canvas in my college apartments because I think it was just marketed to us at that time. Like probably, what is this, like 2013, 2014 ish of yeah, we're changing the script. Right? We're flipping the script. We can do it. You don't have to pick between being a boss bitch and a business lady or a mom or neither. Like you can do whatever you want. Mm-Hmm. . And you can start a business and you can do all this. And again, sure, some people can, but what's being left out of that is all the things that takes to make that happen. Right? You have to have a lot of money. You have to be comfortable, um, financially, physically, mentally. You have to have a support system of uh, at least a partner. Probably paid staff if you have children, if you have, um, other things you have to take care of, you have to be gainfully employed. You have to get the gainful employment. Like it's, if you don't have all of those things lining up, it's never gonna work for you. And so I think that's where at least I saw it get transformed and convoluted into like the girl boss derogatory. Like that's where all the like, Hey hun, MLM started co-opting it of like, you can work at home and be with your kids and be a business owner

Jessica:

Be your boss.

Lark:

Yeah. And it's like, you actually aren't, and it was just so much in our society as a millennial. And I feel like it took so long to kind of unlearn some of that. And it's still hard. We know deep down you can't do that. You can't girl boss yourself out of patriarchy. But it's a great ideal to believe in. You know, it's, it feels cool and empowering to think that you could do that, but we can't. And I, I do feel hope that it's getting made fun of more. It's memed. it's like not cool. I will say though, I was just searching Girl Boss on TikTok and there are so many people earnestly using that hashtag and have it in their handle. And I'm like, oh, I really thought we weren't doing this anymore. But we are.

Jessica:

I think we're in like a different wave of it. And also because of the internet and continuing to grow. 'cause obviously the internet was part of the blow up of girl bossing. And also like, like because of Pan the pandemic leading people to work from home, a lot of people are looking up side hustles. And also like, um, AI, like, here's how I can make money on TikTok. Like, and be make like tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars, like in this period of time by having AI generated things or like stealing people's content. I think it's like a different era of like, my money works for me. Like I don't work for my money. I think the tone has shifted a little bit. And I think that's where like, while we have been free from the shackles of girl bossing, like I think it kind of has a different name in a way. 

Hilary:

Exactly. 

Jessica:

For this new wave. But people are still tagging it in addition to it. 

Lark 

Yeah every creator.

Hilary:

Yeah. I feel like it's morphed into that the, the entire like influencer sphere has started to like feed itself and in sort of an MLM-y way. Like a big one. That's like anyone can be an influencer. Influencers will now teach you how to be other influencers. There's so many like coaches now. Mm-Hmm. for other coaches. It's like there's a coaching pyramid all the way down to it's all just

Lark:

Yeah the life coach. Woof.

Hilary:

Yeah. And it, it's just, and it's all about like a reaction to a system. Patriarchy, capitalism, pick yours that isn't gonna work for you. And so you're trying to like step outside of it. Which is an understandable impulse, but you're just stepping into the same thing again just like disguised as independent, disguised as like something you can control. And it, it's like so depressing to me, but like, if you can come at it with fresh eyes, you like start to like realize there's nothing there. And I have been fed so many reels that tell me that I could make money by, you know, reselling stuff that someone buys on target and sell, putting it on Amazon or whatever the like

Jessica:

Oh yeah. Drop shipping was the other thing

Lark:

Yeah. Yeah. Or just having your Amazon affiliate link any place. Anyone really can have a link in any buy on anything and be your own Girl boss. 

Hilary:

I find it so depressing. All of it. But I think, I think for me, I'm lucky that becoming a cultural moment happened after I was passed the point where like I would hustle in that way. And that's 'cause I had kids by that point. Um, and you just can't hustle the same way though we'll talk about that in a second. 'cause unless you make, unless you make the kids part of the hustle 

Jessica:

Oh my god

Lark:

Yeah god. And we’ll get to that.

Hilary:

And I'm using hustle both, both ways here. The hustle is in, you're like ripping someone off and then the hustle of like, you're trying real hard and it's a spectrum. They're both on the same line. Anyway, I think for me, we didn't know about hustling, but we were certainly all ambitious. But it's like you couldn't, it was like a thing you had to like keep low your ambition. Like we were in, but now

Jessica.

Subtle hustle

Lark:

Yeah we’re a bunch of nerds. Yeah

Hilary:

Right. But now everyone I know, at least I tell everyone this too and they nod. So I'm gonna assume they agree with me and my friends that like, I just tell people all the time, oh, I'm post ambition . Like I'm past it. I, I I'm, I'm over my, you know, I'm not in my ambition era anymore. We're in our relaxing, you know, like

Lark:

Soft life. 

Hilary:

Soft life. Right, right. But I think that uh, for me it's that I have to tell everybody though I'm post ambition. I can't just be it because the culture shifted that like not hustling and not trying has to be like an active state you're in otherwise like what are you doing?

Lark:

 Right. And you're like derided for wanting to not be stressed out. Which is wild 

Hilary:

For work life balanced. Yeah.

Lark:

Yeah. God forbid.

Jessica 

I had a professor in college who was like, at this age, you should be busy every single day. 

Lark:

Oh my God. 

Jessica:

Like why? You're supposed to be doing stuff. Why aren't you doing stuff? And I was like 

Hilary:

That pressure. 

Jessica:

And I was like bestie, I have an anxiety disorder. bestie, I get tired. Bestie, some people have chronic illnesses. Yeah. It was a lot. I was like, oh,

Lark:

I feel like I've seen

Jessica:

I actually don't agree .

Lark:

No, I don't agree. I do think there's always like any movement, there's gonna be holdouts. I do think the like soft life, rat girl, feral girl summer like era stuff is great and perfect and like you don't have to do, when it's done right. I think it's getting co-opted by..

Hilary

Yes, it’s still a thing to attain.

Lark:

It is. But I think there's this, especially I think like rat girl feral girl summer stuff is like, you don't have to actually do anything . What if you just walked around and just hung out with your friends and just did whatever you wanted and like wore whatever you want, did whatever you want. And I think soft life gets to that. But it's been co-opted by the trad wives

Hilary:

Yeah.

Jessica:

Dun dun dun

Lark:

Tough.

Hilary

Every episode I feel like is trad wife adjacent. But this is probably the most trad wife. 

Lark:

We're naming 'em 

Hilary:

Wifey. Trad wifey

Lark:

Hashtag trad wife. So I think the trad wife, , I don't wanna call it a movement.

Jessica:

Traditional wife

Lark:

Yeah. 

Jessica:

Stands for traditional wife

 

Lark:

And it's this concept I guess that is made popular on Instagram and TikTok showing what it's like to be a quote unquote traditional wife of you, um, dressed like free people mixed with Little House on the Prairie . And you don't work outside of the home. You are married to a man. You have as many kids as the Lord will provide you with. And you know, you make your own bread. 

Jessica:

You make everything.

Lark:

Yeah. You make everything. Your kids don't go to school. Um, you just kind of wander around in fields and like look aesthetically pleasing. Um, and that is not real or good. And I think the most famous ones by far are Ballerina Farm and Nara Smith. Even though they don't claim themselves as trad wives, they're definitely who people go to for that ideal. And like when we talk about or think about trad wives, I feel like a lot of us picture those two people. And, uh, there's a lot of heavy undertones and, and true background in heavy patriarchal religions. Um, it's a lot of Mormon culture and a lot of evangelical culture behind a lot of these top creators. And what they leave out, the same thing all the girl boss stuff leaves out is all the things it takes to get that. And like you again, like you can't just do that. You have people watching your kids and taking care of your house and running your businesses.

Jessica:

I think also a piece of what you're talking about with these trad wives is they're not talking about the backside of it and they're not talking about the fact that they get paid to tell us this stuff. 

Lark:

That's my whole thing! You are working!

Jessica:

You are working.

Lark:

You creating content that's monetized you selling stuff with your kids in the video. You. Nara Smith was in a Mark Jacobs ad. You are working. You filming content, editing it, posting it, thinking about it. That is work. You are working and everything you do, even if you weren't posting that is work and you're degrading yourself by saying you're not working. Ballerina Farm has eight children. She's 35 and has eight children in, uh, that Times article that came out. She talks about, she goes, there's weeks she can't get out of bed. She's so exhausted. But she is the supposed ideal of like trad wife soft life and she's physically exhausted to the point that she and her kids know it. Like she's talks about her kids know that's like a quiet week.

Hilary:

There's so much there because of right. Trad wife, soft life. Like putting yourself in this place where like the simplest things right? Plucking an egg. But it's the same. It's the continuum. Right. Like she is still hustling. She can't rest. Having kids is her job because it makes her money and because it upholds the patriarchy. It's all so depressing.

Lark:

It's so depressing and it's so hard to, again, it's women like having to stick up for this. Right. Or say, this is actually what I 

Hilary:

This is my choice.

Lark:

I promise this is what I wanna do. Right. Right. This is my choice. I choose to be a trad wife. I choose to be a girl boss. And it's like, actually babes society chose it for you.It's, it's like

Hilary:

It left you no choice. 

Lark:

You need to be a woman. Right. And you get to pick which trap you get to fall into. You know, is it girl boss? Is it trad wife? Is it Rat Girl Summer? Is it post ambition era? You know, what's your pocket? We all have to exist and live in this. 

Jessica:

And there's also like racial intersections and ramifications as well. Like Nara Smith is black. Um, and thinking about the idea of like a Shonda Rhimes. Of like a black, of an Oprah

Hilary:

Oprah

Jessica.

Things like that where it's like in addition to, you're like, yeah, I'm girl bossing, I'm a woman. But then it's also like, I'm a Black woman, so there's a representation. Right. But it like, not only does it come with like more criticism, more all, all the negative things. Because you're a Black woman. But it's also like, there's the idea in like medical textbooks of like, Black women are inherently stronger and feel less pain. And therefore are less sensitive than white people. And so it's like, oh, you can handle so much more. And also the bar is so much higher. But you got, but it's like, it's so awful. 

Lark:

It's so awful. 

Jessica:

And I feel like I was, I remember being like a, I think it was like in high school when Girl Boss was like a big thing.  And I was like, oh my God, I'm such a little girl boss . I, well I've always been like an overachiever even before I had like a word for it

Lark:

Yeah. The eldest daughter to girl boss

Jessica:

I think we all kind of were at at some point. But like, I was definitely like, I need to have be in like, all the clubs that you can possibly be in. Like I was in school, I was at school like an hour early every day and was there until marching band practice ended at like six. And then I'd go work like a part-time job and then I'd go do all these things because I was like, I'm girl boss. And partially 'cause I was like, I need to get a scholarship for college. But also because I was like everyone needs to see…

Lark:

I have to be busy.

Jessica:

I have to be busy. Everyone has to see like how much work I'm doing. But I was exhausted. Like my mom had to like trick me into taking mental health days in high school, 

Lark:

Which good on your Mom. 

Jessica:

Yeah. Shout out. But at the same time I just felt like the bar was constantly being raised by myself, but then in general by society. Especially when I learned about girl bossing. And even coming to college, I was like, I have to do all these like, really hard things. And then when it hit me that like, coming to college is a hard thing. Like this in itself is very hard and I need to be honest about that. And everything, every step I've taken, like since then, I'm like, this is hard. And like, I can do hard things, but also I need to acknowledge that this is hard and find a way to balance and find a way to like check in and meet myself where I'm at.

Lark:

Well, and just everything women do is hard. Like, being a woman is hard. So like, you don't have to seek out

Jessica:

And we have like hormones and shit like with it

Lark:

And like, you don't have to seek out, we have to live in this world as a woman. So you don't have to seek out extra hard things.

Hilary

Well you don't have to. But also like, what if it weren't so hard? Yeah. What if there were supports? What if there were child care? What if there were, you know, healthcare?

Lark:

Anything at all?

Jessica:

And speaking of hopefully a changing tide in culture literally just around being a woman, and also the role the internet plays in all of this… I'm very excited that I'll be interviewing Lola Kolade. Lola is a content creator. She also has a Substack, which I've been subscribed to for a little while. And she created the idea of Rat Girl Summer. So I'm really excited to like, talk to her about her cultural critiques on girl bossing, her interpretations of girl bossing, and most importantly how she rat girls. 

INTERVIEW 

Jessica:

I am so excited to be here with Lola Kolade. Lola is a writer, digital content creator and the creator of Rat Girl Summer, which I'm so excited to get more into. So again, so thrilled to have you here. Thanks for coming, Lola.

Lola:

Thank you so much for having me. Very excited to chat.

Jessica:

Of course. And so for people who don't know, um, what does it mean to have a Rat Girl Summer? And also where did that come from? Like where did you come up with that idea?

Lola:

Yeah. Rat Girl Summer came just from me thinking about how I wanted to have enjoy my summer, what I wanted my summer to look like. I very much wanted to be free from, any pressure to have a kind of picture perfect social media summer. And I did not want to fall into like the trap of I have to get a summer body, I need a bikini body. I just wanted to live my life. And the word like scurrying kept coming up for me. for some reason, just this image of me running the streets. And that's kind of where Rat Girl Summer came from. But really, um, the kind of ethos of Rat Girl Summer , if you will, is really just about seizing the fun, um, taking control of the opportunities that come your way and just being all about prioritizing fun, prioritizing joy, and not getting caught up in the kind of performance that I think so many of us fall victim to now that we spend so much time consuming other people's curated lives on social media. 

Jessica:

For sure. And I, the idea of saying scurrying in a non derogatory way, I feel like I always am. Like I'm scurrying from this thing to the other instead of like, I'm scurrying about my city. Like I love,

Lola:

Yeah my city, running it.

Jessica:

We, the rats don't run the city. We do

Lola:

Exactly.

Jessica:

. Um, but we are the rats in this case. I love that. Um,  I love how you're honing in on the idea of not performing for other people or even performing for ourselves. And I think that does kind of tie into like our broader conversation that we've been having on this episode about girl bossing , um And it's kind of the opposite of it, um, in a way where it's like, I'm going about life how I want to go about it. I'm not feeling the need to slay at every turn or to do the absolute max at every opportunity. And so we kind of talked about how we all felt like we all saw the girl boss, like girl bossification of things in like the 2010s and it kind of has gone through its cycle and we consider it to be dead. But do you think that we're done with girl bossing or do you think it's being rebranded into something else?

Lola:

I don't think that the girl boss can truly be dead until, you know, we overthrow capitalism .

Jessica:

Welp

Lola:

I think as long as we're living in a capitalist society, you know, the girls are gonna be bossing . But I do think that the kind of chaos and tumults of the last few years has made a lot of people reevaluate their relationship to work. Their relationship to the idea of climbing the corporate ladder and made a lot of people think about, okay, what is really important to me? How do I really want to spend my time here on earth? And I think that's definitely a result of the pandemic, just kind of dismantling our lives as, as we knew it. So I definitely think that, um, it's heyday has passed for sure.

Jessica:

Yeah. And I think we were talking or definitely feeling as though tying into your critique on capitalism, which is so real, , uh, this is just sparkly pink capitalism is girl bossing. It's, it's

 

Lola:

very much.

Jessica:

It’s girl boss, it’s capitalism, but make it cute like capitalism, but make it, make it chic or whatever. And I agree with you with saying, as long as we're in a capitalistic society, like there will always be the urge the voices telling us to girl boss. But do you think that's the only reason people can't let it go? Or do you think there are some other factors?

Lola:

I think that's the main reason, definitely. I think for a lot of people it's hard to imagine an alternative of kind of crushing it in the system because this is the only system that we know. And especially, you know, in the United States we have this like Protestant work ethic, rise and grind hustle culture is very much embedded into the culture of this country. So I think it's kind of hard to escape and conceive of a different way to live your life. And of course then there's just the fact like, we need money to live like the girls need bread, you know, like good vibes and a nice personality are not gonna pay your bills ,

Jessica:

Unfortunately.

Lola:

And so I think. Unfortunately. If vibes could pay the bills, girl, 

Jessica:

We'd be rich. 

Lola:

I'd be a billionaire

Jessica:

The only way that I aspire to be a billionaire is in terms of vibes.

Lola:

Exactly. . But unfortunately as that's not the case, the urge I think to win the game of capitalism, uh, will always be there.

Jessica:

For sure. I guess I wanna talk a little bit about like, were you caught up in the girl boss wave in the 2010s and like how did that 

Lola:

Oh fully

Jessica:

How did that impact you? And like do you remember like if you were caught up, like did you immediately like buy into it? Were you skeptical and like, what was your journey with that and when did you realize, oh, this isn't really working for me?

Lola:

Yeah, absolutely. Um, fully caught up, completely drank the Kool-Aid fully lost in the sauce, fully bought into it. I think for me, my natural tendency, I'm kind of an ambitious monster. Like ambition monster. I'm always, you know, very type a like all about like academics and doing well in school. I am first generation American. My parents are immigrants from Nigeria. And that culture is very much like put your head down, hit the books, crush it in school, become a lawyer or a doctor or you know, an engineer and that's it. So fully locked in and just kind of head first went into the girl boss culture. But kind of related to what I mentioned earlier, the pandemic was a huge wake up for me because I was in my last semester of grad school and I was working and interning and freelancing and just had this like, jam packed schedule and was just trying to rack up all of these accolades because I felt like that would give my life meaning. And when all of that was gone and I had to kind of like sit down and look at myself and my life, I was like, wait, this actually is not a personality.

Jessica:

Being so stressed out.

Lola:

Having a bunch of degrees and working a bunch of jobs and being stressed is actually not a personality who knew .

Jessica:

It's a cruel awakening when it comes to you, it comes, you're just like, well, what, what do I do now?

Lola:

Yeah, exactly. So I really had this like come to Jesus moment of like, who am I? What is important to me if I'm not racking up accolades, if I'm not trying to crush it, like what is, are actually the principles that I'm building my life upon? And it kind of kicked off like not to be a cliche than I am, like a healing journey of reevaluating what's important to me. And I think I'm not alone in that. I think a lot of people had that. But for me that was definitely the moment.

Jessica:

It's such a journey. And I don't think healing journey is cliche at all because it is, it is exhausting to be in the wheel of like, I must constantly achieve and must constantly be productive and rest isn't productive and relaxing isn't productive and doing things that I enjoy is not productive or anything that doesn't make me money isn't productive. And it is exhausting to live in that, but it's even more terrifying to explore what it is outside of what you know, even if it is exhausting.

Lola:

Yeah, very much so.

Jessica:

And so do you think there is a way that we as women can advance, can advocate and like empower each other to, I don't know, do anything without falling into hustle culture and without like girl bossing? Like, I mean, how can we like support each other and push each other without girl bossing too close to the sun? 

Lola:

Yeah. No, I think it's definitely possible and I, I think it's essential actually because I feel like the kind of fatal flaw of girl boss culture that, you know, a lot of people woke up to is that when you encourage women to learn how to game the system that's oppressing us , it doesn't dismantle that system at all. In fact, it just strengthens it, right? Like, you just kind of learn to put your head down and play the game, um, without actually critiquing it or creating kind of act any kind of actionable change. And I don't think that it's a coincidence that, you know, a lot of these companies that were female founded, female led companies during the Girl boss era have since had a fall from grace where we've learned that, you know, the, the leadership of those companies were very much toxic in the same way as these larger corporations. So the aim I think is not to kind of reproduce the toxic culture, um, that we're raised in, but to think critically about what it could look like to create a new culture that's supportive and not so dog eat dog and not based on competition. Um, because there is no scarcity of resources. This is one of the myths of capitalism. Like there's more than enough to go around. And once you start reorienting your perspective to see that there's a lot of natural abundance around us and the issue is distribution and kind of prioritizing profits over people, then you can start to first reevaluate how you live your life and then also kind of spread that idea to your community and to the, to the other women around you.

Jessica:

Yeah. Success isn't a pie. Like, and there's only so many slices, like everyone can, there's unlimited slices. In a way you kinda have to move things around and you don't have to conform to whatever you think is success in order to be a fulfilled person of anything. It's the opposite.

Lola:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Jessica:

So I think another part of the girl boss epidemic is the idea of representation. And you kind of talked about it, right? Like all these women owned companies, um, some of them ending up having the same problems as male-owned companies or like large corporations, but it's like, it's okay 'cause it's a woman or it's okay because we finally got representation, um, where we haven't had it before. And there's also like the glass cliff, like the idea of like a woman coming in and like saving a company, but when it's on like the brink of, um, falling and then they're put in a pos an impossible position in a way. And so I think we're slowly starting to realize that like representation will not save us um, just because a woman is in a position of power, just 'cause a woman has reached a level that a woman has never reached in a societal context or in a power context, like, does not mean that we are free or does not mean that we have like defied all odds of like racism and sexism. So like how do we give less value to representation do you think? And like how do we focus more on like the things that really matter? I feel like that's a really big question.

Lola:

. Yeah. I think to start, I wanna say that I do think representation is still important. I know that, um, it's not perfect and I do think like, you know, the kind of representation matters. Um, you know, rallying cry of the 2010s doesn't resonate as much, but I do think it's important to highlight that it's very hard to imagine something that you cannot see. Mm. And if you've never seen someone that looks like you achieve certain things, it can be hard to imagine that you can achieve those things. And I don't think that, um, we can discount that. I think that's really important. But I also think it's important to remain aware of the systems that we're navigating within. So when you see a woman, a person of color, um, achieving within these restrictive systems that don't typically reward us, there is a pretty big chance that they're a game player, that they know how to toe the party line, that they're not the most progressive person. Like, they're not the person that's really pushing the boundaries and that is part of the reason they've been able to succeed within the system. So I think that it's important to kind of have a balance between those two perspectives and always to remember that beyond identity, um, and, and the various kind of intersections that we exist in, what really matters at the end of the day is this person's actions and what they believe in. And again, not say that they believe in, but what we see actually tangibly when we look at their record as, you know, a business owner or even people that we know personally, is this person really about it? for, for lack of a better term and not getting so caught up in just the, the representation matters piece. Because it doesn't matter, you know, if you're a woman and you're a CEO of a Fortune 500 company or whatever, if you are participating in wage theft the same way all that your male peers have for centuries. You're not, you're not helping anybody. And, and in fact you are oppressing other women. Um, and that is important to always remain aware of I think.

Jessica:

For sure the idea that representation is still significant, but it is not the entire thing. There's other parts to it.

Lola:

Exactly. It's a small piece of a much larger, uh, conversation.

Jessica:

A hundred percent. And it seems like, the real girl bosses, quote unquote are rebranding. They still exist, but it's not in the same cursive font that it used to be. Um, and so my question is,

Lola:

And I know the exact curse of font, you're talking about ,

Jessica:

But so like if we don't see that tacky millennial font, like how can we spot it? Like how do you spot it when you're like scrolling through your feed? Like when you see like other creators, like how do you spot it when it's a little bit less blatant or just coded in a different way and like, what should we, you know, be looking out for how do we not fall for Kool-Aid, but instead now it's like, I don't know what is, what is the like, like, I don't know. I feel like people

Lola:

Matcha. 

Jessica:

Yeah but it's matcha, so we're like, oh, but it's good. It's like, no babe, it's the same match. I'm sure some people, I don't know, I'm not a matcha really, but I respect it.

Lola:

Neither am I, but I know that it, it kind of occupies a similar place in the culture .

Jessica:

It does. It's like, it's like, no, I don't drink Kool-Aid. I drink uh, Match Lemonade and it's like bestie. Um, anyway, so how do, how do we spot girl bossing 2.0?

Lola:

Yeah, I think anything that romanticizes kind of like hyper-productivity, optimizing every minute of your day should kind, give you pause. It should kind of be like, hmm, this is a little bit of a red flag. I think that a kind of more modern iteration of the girl boss trend is like the, that girl trend on social media.

Jessica:

It girl

Lark:

I don't dunno if you're familiar of it. Yeah like that girl, she wakes up at 5:00 AM she does Pilates, she journals, she meditates like she is, she's running her own business. Or alternatively, she's a corporate girly, but basically every minute of the day is regimented. She's on top of it. She's into wellness. She has money, you know, maybe she has a boyfriend who's a very successful content vertical for her. Um, but everything in her life is kind of working to the end, is working somehow. It's not about relaxation, it's not about, um, kind of like taking a moment for yourself. So I think it kind of evolves to fit the kind of dominant conversation of the time. But I think that anything that's all about optimizing should kind of give you pause. Because it goes back to even like the eighties, that first wave of like, women having it all and shoulder pads and skirt suits. Like, it's always there. It's kind of up to you to catch it and kind of take a step back and be like, I don't have to live my life this way. Actually, there is an alternative, but it's, it, it's definitely a sneaky, a sneaky little beast. .

Jessica:

I literally almost wore a shirt today that I had to cut shoulder pads out of

Lola:

.

Jessica:

So I'm very familiar.

Lola:

.

Jessica:

But yeah, in general, and this isn't really like our brand, but in general like social media consumption, like just being wary, understanding that a lot of people are selling a lifestyle. And even like you said, 'cause you were just talking about how like that that girl, like she gets up, she goes to the gym, she meditates, she journals, and then she like, you know, goes to work and all of those, like beginning things are things that people arguably could be or should be doing for their wellness. But it is commodified in such a way that it's like, you know, if you don't have time for this, then like, you know, if it doesn't fit in to your, to your general flow, then you're failing or like you're not doing what you need to be doing and that's where the problem is.

Lola:

Yeah. And like, to be clear, those wellness practices are very important. I am, my morning routine is a huge part of my life. I'm very strict about it, but it's because, uh, that's because of me and taking care of myself. And I think that the way that social media often sells us, these wellness practices is like, take care of yourself, invest in your wellness so you can be the hardest worker ever and you can maximize revenue instead of it coming from a place of you are a person who has inherent value. You deserve to be cared for, you deserve to rest, you deserve to nourish your body, nourish your mind. It's like, no, do these things so you can perform. And I think that that, like the origin of why you are critiquing in these tasks is very important because then the end result that you're expecting is different. 

Jessica:

For sure. That's a such a beautiful note to end on. Lola, thank you so much for all of your reflections and your jokes and everything. It was so perfect . Um, and I can't wait to see, you know, what you continue to write.

Lola:

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This was awesome.

CREDITS:

Hearsay is a Wonder Media network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis and Hilary Woodward. Our producers are Taylor Williamson and Abby Delk. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and Maddy Foley is our editor show Art by Andrea Sumner.

BLOOPER:

Lark:

A person named Stormi Bree. And a person named Lucky Blue Smith had a baby and its name is Gravity something 

Hilary:

Jessica:

Y'all. I wish y'all could see Hillary's face right now.

Lark:

Um…

Hilary:

I don't wanna make fun of children. 

Lark:

Yeah. Gravity Bree. 

Jessica:

They didn't pick their names. 

Lark:

No. We're making fun of the parents. Not the kids. 

Hilary:

I know I know, I'm so sorry, children.

Lark:

Yeah.