Hearsay

Drake, Kendrick, and Megan Thee Stallion: What Will It Take to Protect Black Women?

Episode Summary

The experience of all sexual violence survivors is not created equal—why are Black women’s experiences not taken seriously? From #MuteRKelly to Tory Lanez, we’ve seen Black women used as scapegoats and blamed for the harm caused to them. We talk with Tarana Burke and Jamilah LeMieux about Drake vs. Kendrick, protecting Black women, and what it means to keep us safe.

Episode Notes

The experience of all sexual violence survivors is not created equal—why are Black women’s experiences not taken seriously? From #MuteRKelly to Tory Lanez, we’ve seen Black women used as scapegoats and blamed for the harm caused to them. We talk with Tarana Burke and Jamilah LeMieux about Drake vs. Kendrick, protecting Black women, and what it means to keep us safe.

For more information and ways to support survivors, visit the metoo. Movement website 

Resources:

  1. You can stream Surviving R. Kelly on Netflix
  2. The book Lark mentioned is Soulless: The Case Against R. Kelly
  3. The book Jessica mentioned is Hood Feminism: Notes from the Women That a Movement Forgot by Mikki Kendall
  4. Here is the metoo. Movement and Black Voters Matter Survivor Justice Voter Guide
  5. More on Tarana Burke
  6. More on Jamilah LeMieux

 

Episode Transcription

Hilary:

Hi, I am Hilary. 

Jessica:

I'm Jessica.

Lark: 

And I'm Lark. Welcome to Hearsay where we deep dive into the cultural moments that live a rent-free in our heads and probably yours too. We are here today to talk about a super important issue, something that we talk about a lot here at the National Women's Law Center. Something that I have such a personal connection to, I guess, and that's the experience and treatment of Black survivors. I hope you can take care while youre listening. Take breaks if you need. Go to your comfort places and people and we will have resources in the show notes. I think a lot of people don't realize that the experience of survivors of sexual violence is not created equal. Black women often get blamed for coming forward with accusations in their stories, especially when we talk about high-profile Black men like Diddy, like R. Kelly and the world, the media, their communities as a whole do not offer them the support they need. And that's really sad, but it's an important issue that we feel like doesn't always get the big moment, right.

We, we have these big reckoning moments, and for a lot of people, that was when #MeToo went viral. And that was an incredible moment for survivor reckoning and survivor recognition. But at that moment, I feel like so many other Black women I knew knew that that didn't mean them. Right? Like even though Tarana Burke had created it, who is a Black woman, and that all these people were coming forward and that this was this huge moment that was happening. So many Black women I know were like, well, but that's not for us. Right? Like they, because it's this big moment, they knew instinctively it wasn't going to include them.

Jessica: 

Yeah. I just think when I was reading for the episode today, I don't think I realized that Tarana had made the hashtag made me too years and years and years before it actually went viral in 2017. She had been talking about survivor stories for years, specifically Black women survivor stories for years. And it wasn't until mainstream feminism, white feminism got hold of it that people were like, oh, it's really easy to talk about things and be like, hypothetically be like, no. This is one of those situations where continuously time and time again, we are being shown just how little Black women are valued, understood, appreciated, and taken seriously no matter what the experience is, even if it's like a positive experience or like something they worked hard for. There's always something to dispute. And the same thing is applicable more so in traumatic situations.

And then, you know, watching Surviving R Kelly and there's so many aspects of watching it that I feel like stood out. But to me, I think I was just like, we've been clowning his survivors for decades. We, as a culture. Not we as individuals, but like my first reference of r Kelly was in Thrift Shop by Macklemore. 

Lark:

Oh, wow. 

Hilary:

Woah

Jessica:

Well, obviously I knew about like his music, like I'd heard his songs, but like, smells like R Kelly Sheets in Thrift Shop by Macklemore and what that, what does an 11, 12, 13-year-old know about that he wasn't the only one? But that's the whole thing.

Lark: 

I remember being like a kid on the playground when the tapes came out. And I still at that point, I mean, I was a kid, I didn't know, you know, and it wasn't something we talked about a lot in school, obviously. And so I just knew him as the singer of these songs, you know, and dancing to his songs in high school and college, and then Surviving R Kelly come out when it was so blatant. That was, you know, I feel like we talk about this every time there's a documentary or a movie or a movement that comes out of something that's been going on for so long. Seeing it laid out in that succinct timeline that it was for decades and decades,

Jessica: 

I felt disgusting knowing how little I, you know, played a role in it, if that makes any sense. Like, I was just like, but I felt guilty. Like I was like this, I we should feel bad as a society for what, how we treated R Kelly survivors. But also, it doesn't have to be an egregious case for survivors to be taken seriously.

Lark:

No

Hilary:

Right. Well it does though. I mean…

Jessica:

It shouldn’t have to be.

Hilary: 

It shouldn't have to be.

Jessica: 

It, it does have to be. 'cause it had, it had to get two plus decades worth of documentary material to make this for people to realize that like, oh, this is actually isn't funny anymore, even though it was actively happening.

Hilary: 

It was a joke. It was like a punchline. At least my generation at that point.

Jessica: 

But it's like, to what degree, and granted this is like, not at all related to our work, but I guess in terms of how do we support survivors in de platform? Mm-Hmm. Abusers. Assaulters. Rapists. Um, so yeah, how do you de platform people? And like I was thinking about how Megan Thee Stallion when she was shot in the foot and Kehlani had a track with Tory Lanez, she took him off. Like it's not on Spotify anymore. Like I'm, I'm, I think she made a statement about it, but I can't be too sure. 

Lark: 

Lady Gaga did the same with her song with R. Kelly

Jessica:

Oh really? Um, so Lady Gaga and Dua Lipa ended up taking Da Baby off, but not because of Meg, but because of, um, homophobia, which is still, you know, bad. But at the same time you have these prominent artists, like, well, at one point Da Baby was prominent, now he's not, thank God. Um, Drake, Nicki making jokes about Meg, who survived an assault and like actively, like it's been years, 

Lark: (08:16)

All of them, every rapper came to his support. A man who, Tory Lanez, who is not, he was like barely famous, not popular, not well-liked.

Jessica:

Just a random man. 

Lark:

And everyone was showing their ass and supporting him. And I mean, obviously everyone should support survivors, but it, in this instance for de-platforming people, it's going to take other powerful men. And so far they have not been willing to give them a single cent.

Hilary:

Because they don't want anyone to come for them. 

Lark:

No. Because they're all complicit. It's like, it's so insidious. And I think that is something that I saw clearly in my own life the most with R. Kelly and Bill Cosby is seeing older family members, especially still to this day, proclaim Cosby's innocence and talk about, well, but he did so much for this, you know, he elevated this, 

Jessica:

But the thing is he didn’t. 

Lark:

Or R. Kelly this. Right. And it's like, you don't, if you also are assaulting everyone you come in contact with, like, then that negates every good thing you did 'cause you were doing that to cover up all the bad things you were doing. 

Jessica: 

And you can even go more into like, yes, Bill Cosby had like a primetime show about like, you know, a Black doctor and a Black lawyer having like a family and everyone, 

Lark:

And he gave tons of money to universities. But,

Jessica: 

But he also now, in addition to, you know, assaulting people, preached all of these like respectability politics, which

Lark: 

Not helping anyone.

Jessica:

Not helping anyone, and then look at what you did. Like, it's so, there's so many layers which ended up like, you know, he only wanted to help a certain kind of Black person. And even still that is negated by everything that he's actually done to harm women people for generations.

Lark: 

Which in, I read the book “Soulless: The Case Against R. Kelly” a couple years ago, and he talks about that how you were saying Cosby was uplifting a certain type of Black person. R Kelly was also, you know, he was out there on the south side. I have family members that remember seeing him at basketball games. He was at the rock and roll McDonald's. That was his favorite place to traffic children.

Jessica: 

I was about to say McDonald's.

Lark: 

Yeah. But it was the spot kids to hang out after school.

Jessica:

No I'm saying like, McDonald's does not scream adult to me. That's why I was like, I was just putting it together. I was like, wait a second.

Lark: 

But he was, he was someone who got famous but you know, didn't leave the neighborhood behind. Right. He's still there, he's still sponsoring stuff. And that covered up so much for so long.

Hilary: 

There's a moment where you know about somebody or, and other people don't maybe, or they're choosing not to listen. And you have to decide like how much you know with your family members, how much with your friends are you going to be what is labeled the killjoy? Right. But is also like the person who, who can, like this doesn't happen if we don't have these conversations. There's a personal cost to every single person, whether, you know, to say, don't listen to that anymore. Don't watch that anymore. You sort of have to sigh and like go down. Right. 

Lark: 

And it's not fun.

Hilary: 

Right. And who doesn't, who wants to do that in, in a entertainment where it's supposed to be fun. But I, I just feel like the cost of not is so great for the, the message that you send over and over again to the people around you who have been assaulted or who are survivors or like to our kids to watch to say like, yes, this person did something wrong and they've never atone for it, but we're all gonna just move on because they're really rich and powerful and made a song that you associate with your childhood. I feel for people in that position yet I don't think we have like a moral choice.

Jessica: 

No, I agree. Like, I mean, yeah, maybe it is easier for you, but if you, some people just gotta be for real. I took out a word in between. Be for real, but you just gotta be for real. Like BFFR.

Lark: 

A lot of that work is internal to the Black community too. And I think Megan's case showed that a lot of it was a lot of black people not believing her and saying, let me see the facts, reading the court transcripts and still not believing her. And she was someone who was showing her support for Black men in her, the Black community when it comes to the carceral system. She didn't call the police, she refused, she tried to protect him. 

Jessica:

And she said she didn’t want to.

Lark:

She first said nothing happened, tried not to do it. And everyone attacked her from the get. The internal stigma and shame for all survivors is so almost insurmountable. And I think that's something we saw a lot in Surviving R. Kelly and in the Mute R. Kelly movement of the shame we put on young Black girls of calling them fast and adulting them and putting the blame on them. That is something we all can hold whether, whatever your feelings are about someone, you need to keep people safe. And I think framing it in that safety way is the key to do it. And I do think Meg's case brought that because there unfortunately was gun violence. I think it's easier for people to see the direct harm in that and we're, I hope, have been able to translate that safety need for safety, that need for support, that need for believing her the first time and supporting her in her entire battle. That happened when the entire music industry went against her into translating that into Black survivors.

Jessica: 

I'm actually reading Hood Feminism by Mikki Kendall right now. Um, just not for fun, , but I love essay collections. I think it's important to, you know, keep up with it as much as I can. And I am a writer, so just wanting to consume as much as I can. And the essay on is her essay of Fast Tail Girls and Freedom. So I was like, how timely is it for me to be reading this when we were about to do this episode? First quote I got from it is, “it's not enough to focus on the most visible victims. We must use every opportunity to challenge rape culture at all levels.” And the other quote, “when the humanity of women of color is erased by these dehumanizing tropes, [mainly talking about like justification and objectification of women] the duty of feminists is to push back. Instead, all too often women of color are left to explain and fight on their own because some of the, the same feminists who understand objectification when it comes to them suddenly can't understand it if it's someone else.” And so I think it's just like, it is just so easy to decide to believe people and you don't have to know someone that's been impacted personally to say, I believe you.

Lark: 

And to say, I love you and I support you and I wish you to be safe. Like that's, it's, I think there's a lot of shame and stigma in all of that, but I, I, I do feel hopeful. I feel things are still really, really bad and it's gonna take us a long time to get to the really honestly good place. But I do think we're improving I think.

Jessica: 

I don't know if I feel that way. And I mean, maybe it'll come more and more with time. And I think like having, um, having the Me Too movement and having like these instances that I feel like are popping up more and more where people are talking about it. I hope that not only justice is served for these survivors, however they want that justice, but also I hope that it's not in vain. 

Lark: 

Yeah. And like, it never should have come to that, to your point, 

Jessica: 

It never should have come to it 

Lark: 

About it being egregious and having to be the worst case possible. Sure. We have these big moments in big documentaries and big reckonings, but first time it shouldn't even have gotten to that like, and that is discouraging, I think. I mean, this is an issue that unfortunately has been around for such a long time. It's going to take a lot of real intentional focused work to solve. And it's, there's not one easy answer like we've mentioned. Um, but it's, it's everything, right? It's in our legal system, it's political, it's cultural. And we're gonna be discussing all of this and so much more with Tarana Burke, who as we mentioned is the creator of Me Too. And Jamilah Lemieux, who is a beautiful writer and cultural critic who I would say is kind of like the preeminent voice on like Black survivorhood in the cultural sense. She's written a lot about Black abusers. So I'm excited to dig a little deeper. I know they have such incredible insights about all of this and more.

Lark: 

I'm so honored to be here with Tarana Burke and Jamilah Lemieux. You guys probably know both of them. Um, but Tarana is an activist and an organizer who started the Me Too movement. You now serve as the Chief Vision Officer of Me Too Movement. Uh, Jamilah’s also an activist, a writer, a cultural commentator, personally, one of my favorite Instagram follows. Um, but both of you have spent so much of your life's work kind of saying and advocating for things that so many other mainstream white organizations and people are afraid to say when it comes to survivor focused work. And that is why we wanted to talk to you today and talk about truly the disparity we still have and the treatment that Black women face in the survivor movement. So, um, let's just dive right on in. Jamilah, I wanna start with you. I know most of our listeners probably have heard of both of you and have seen your work out in the wild. But I wanna know what got you into this kind of lane of cultural commentary? Was this always kind of something you envisioned yourself being a part of, survivor focused work? What was your path like into where you are now?

Jamilah:

No, I definitely didn't envision myself doing this sort of work. Um, but I was always outspoken. You know, ever since I was a child, I was outspoken about issues of race and issues of gender. And I started a blog my senior year in college and it kind of took on a life of its own. I realized like, this is something I could take seriously. This is, you know, something that I can build a life from. And I started writing and, you know, you calledl me an activist. I wouldn't say I think of myself as an activist. Uh, I think of myself as a writer first, but there's a quote I love from Tony Cade Bambara, which is that “the job of the writer is to make revolution irresistible.” So I just try to use what I can do to support the work of people like Tarana who are really in the trenches.

Lark: 

Tarana, what about you? I know you've talked a bit about how you came to this work, but maybe if you could fill our listeners in a little bit.

Tarana: 

When I was a teenager around 14, I joined a youth leadership organization that was specifically about training young people to become organizers. And so when I started that work, it just, it sparked something in me that was, you know, similar to what Jamilah was saying, once you have that spark and you're like, oh, people will listen to me, I can, I can not just be angry about this thing or upset about this thing and just pout about it. I can like, make something happen that happened really early. And I, I grew up in a time period in history that's not unlike this moment now, right? It's just we didn't have social media so it wasn't documented in the same way. But, you know, I was politicized by the, the time. So we had rampant police brutality. We had these wild political issues that were happening that were directly affecting young Black people, young Black and brown people in my community. And so I wanted to do something, I wanted to say something, and I got an opportunity to do that. And I never stopped.

Lark: 

I don't remember who it was, who was I was talking to a couple months ago, and they said kind of what you both have just mentioned, that you don't kind of choose this path, it chooses you, right? If you're someone who is seeing these things and needs to say something and wants to support your people, you're gonna do that. And that's something that's always with you, whether you do it for your job or not. So that's so interesting to hear you guys both say that. And talking about the, the times we're in, like you just mentioned Tarana, um, I'm wondering, you know, we all are living these issues that we're working on, right? We’re Black women, we're here, we're seeing it affect our communities and especially during these public inflection points, right? Where we, the whole world or most of the country is tuned into one moment, especially when it comes to sexual violence. We're seeing and also feeling the stark, stark contrast of what white survivors and Black survivors face in those moments, right? How they're treated in the media, in their communities, in the carceral system. Like that happens at every single point. And I'm wondering for both of you, maybe Tarana we’ll start with you. Were you surprised by this? You know, how do those inflection points make you feel? I'm presuming neither of you are shocked. None of us I think, who are, uh, not white are shocked by that. But what do those moments show up like in your life?

Tarana: 

I, I mean, I've, I've said this over and over again, this, that we are socialized to respond to the vulnerability of white women in this country of really around the world. But even white women can't stop that. You know what I mean? Even the most, well-meaning white women can't stop that because it is how this country was set up. White women who have their own set of oppressions that they deal with were shocked when they got their voices heard around sexual violence and sexual harassment and things like that. What we often see, which is like, oh look, we are being seen. So everybody's being seen. Their visibility is visibility for everybody and forget to look back and see what's underneath this big umbrella that they've opened up. It's not an umbrella, it's a blinder. And they don't, they don't realize that. And so it takes us to cut a hole in that umbrella and peek our heads out and say, Hey, there's some other people back here.

Black women are the second largest group of survivors in this country. Survivors of sexual violence. The first group is indigenous women, completely erased from this conversation. So not only do we have to hold up a flag for ourselves, we also have to say and look at our sisters. We're number two and we are a large group. Y'all don't even think about number one.

I mean, the whole spectrum of the R. Kelly situation is a perfect example. Folks like us, Jamilah and I have been talking about R. Kelly for years, Z on the end, yearz. Mute R. Kelly preceeded Me Too. The, the women who were talking about that, that was ramping up survivors of R. Kelly who were coming out breaking their NDAs. That story was written in August of 2017. These were Black women who were deciding that we have to amplify these stories. Then you had October come and overshadow those stories 'cause that story wasn't important. Buzzfeed had broken that story in August and it got a little bit of whatever, but of course it was Black women who were amplifying that was Black women who were saying, oh my gosh, look at this. We need to Mute R. Kelly. The wave of me too allowed that to get amplified even more. But Black women started that lift as usual beforehand. There's a Black woman at the center of this who needs to have visibility, right?

Lark:  

Those of us in it, you know, if you're a Black woman and you're in survivor work, you knew about Mute R. Kelly, like you said. So I'm wondering, Jamilah, if you could talk a little more about what that felt like to you to have been someone sounding the alarm on this saying this is what's going on, and then watching that wave kind of come and go, what has that felt like for you?

Jamilah:

There's part of me that's still surprised we were actually able to take R. Kelly down. You know, it went on for 30 years. It went on for 30 years, right? And so the progress that we've seen towards refocusing how people think about sexual violence in the past five to eight years has been heartening, right? But there's still just so far to go, you know? And it's not lost on me that R. Kelly had to be this prolific abuser, right? Because when somebody has one allegation of sexual assault, oh well he said, she said, you know, like, we're still fighting that battle. We're still trying to get people to be believed. If we can only take down the big ones, we have a problem. You know? So they're still so far to go.

Lark: 

I'm wondering, Jamilah, you talked a lot about the cultural kind of ripple-down effects, right? That how we choose to treat survivors and who we decide is an abuser ripples down into how boys treat their classmates in school. You know, how people approach you on dating apps, how people feel empowered to comment on your Instagram. Like, I'm wondering if you have seen a change or a shift in the culture, both within our communities and outside our community.

Jamilah: 

I've seen some change. I see it primarily with younger people. Um, I always joke that I like, you know, I'm single. I like younger men because they have better gender politics, you know, like, I've never had an R. Kelly Bill Cosby argument with the guy in his early thirties, you know, but if you talk to a guy in his early forties or early fifties, you can get your feelings hurt real fast. So I do think that, you know, we're lucky that two generations of young people have watched Me Too, you know, become a normal conversation, right? Something that's part of the culture, something that we're dealing with on a regular basis. And I think it's gonna impact how many of them, not all of them, but how many of them operate in the world. But when it comes to Gen Xers and older millennials and baby boomers, there's still a lot of people that are holding on to those old attitudes that victim blaming, you know, that proclivity, we have to make excuses for Black men, particularly powerful Black men. I think the future is brighter than what Tarana and I have grown up with, you know? But they're still, like I said before, long way to go.

Lark: 

I see it too. I have older relatives, you know, still on Facebook posting anytime there's an update or, or still reclaiming and, and, and proclaiming someone's innocence. And it's like, you are my auntie and I love you so much in every other way, but I'm begging you to, see this and its so interesting. Tarana, did you wanna touch on that?

Tarana: 

Well, but I, I think that's why movement building is important and to move people away from these case-by-case kind of conversations. And it's important for us to, to create spaces where we can have the conversation when it's not a case in the news, when it's not about a beloved figure or a popular icon or whatever in a, a movement that is back, taking it back to the community and back to people to have this conversation. You know, we, we partner with Black Voters Matter and created this, uh, voter guide and the voter guide. It's a C3 voter guide. So it just asks questions. It, it's questions that for folks to ask themselves and ask their politicians about what survivor justice looks like. You know, like, how are you keeping this community safe? When you say safety, does it include all of these ways to prevent sexual violence or to support survivors?

But when we were out in the community posted up on a, in a, in a parking lot of an Auto Zone, talking to people, of course, they were like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's me too thing. That's that R. Kelly, that, that Diddy, whatever. And I'm like, yeah, let, let's talk about your pastor. Let's talk about your, let's talk about your uncle. Let's talk about your auntie. You know, these big celebrities become an avatar for people, right? And they become an escape from having real conversations about what's actually happening in our communities. They are a proxy for the, the real people that are causing trauma inside of our lives. And because it's an intra-communal deeply intra-communal issue, it's really hard to talk about. It's really nuanced to talk about, but we have to have these conversations. And it's, and it's also bigger than what's happening between, say, Black men and Black women.

We don't talk about children and protecting our children. We don't talk about elders. We don't talk about the disabled. We don't talk about trans folks and queer folks. Like it's a, it's a much deeper conversation about what's happening inside of our communities. And if we can move the conversation to a conversation about safety, what does it really mean to have a safe community? Somebody gets shot in the community. We get our T-shirts together and we, you know, rest in peace, and we have our rallies and we say, I, I want my children to be safe. And but, but when somebody is raped in our community, a child is molested in our community, everybody gets quiet, right? So if we really wanna have conversations about safety and community safety, we need to elevate these conversations when it's not, or, or take advantage of them when it's a celebrity and flip it. And when it's not a celebrity, when it's not that time. That's why movements are necessary, because we gotta move the people towards real conversations that they may not be comfortable having, but they understand it's happening. Whether you wanna talk about it or not. These numbers are real. Numbers, don't lie.

Lark: 

What you both said reminded me of Megan Thee stallion, like the rap community threw her literally under the bus. Then once she, you know, was quote victorious back with it. But then we still saw Drake and Kendrick, you know, throwing every woman under the bus while they're beefing with each other. I saw, you know, people like you guys on Twitter and saying like, yeah, the boys are fighting, but they're talking about crimes and actually abuse in both of these ways. And everyone's glossing over that.

Jamilah: (32:36)

and what she's gone through in public is just such a profound commentary on how thoroughly hated Black women are. You know, because all this girl has done is perform at the highest level, you know, achievement after achievement, talent, beauty, humility. I mean, she should be just the most popular girl. And she is. But as beloved as she is, she is equally hated. You know, she's hated because she was a victim and because the Black man who victimized her was held accountable despite her own efforts to prevent that accountability. You know, that's always lost in the conversation about did she get shot or did she not? That she initially lied to protect this man. And she's not given credit for that. She's not seen as being an ally to Black men, right? And just, you know, the way that she's been attacked by Nicki Minaj, who's mocked her victim status, you know, accused her of playing, you know, the media for sympathy. It just shows what the stakes are for Black women and girls coming forward when they've been harmed, you know, and particularly when they've been harmed by a Black man or a boy. And I think anyone who's ever wondered why not report, why not say something?should look at what happened to this incredibly well-resourced, incredibly popular Black woman in public for just daring to be honest about what happened to her.

Tarana:

There's a part of me that is, that grieves for Nicki Minaj a bit, because you, her pain is almost palpable. It almost feels like somebody who loves her deeply needs to pull her to the side and say, what is the matter? This is not the way, this is not a healthy way for you to deal with whatever the missteps that you've made, that nobody gave you grace for whatever the things are. It feels so obvious to me that this vitriol that she points at Megan or even the other women is misdirected it. I mean, I, I'm all for a battle, right? You know, from the hip hop perspective, but it just doesn't feel like that. It feels like there's something else underneath that that is a type of pain that God knows what her real story is and what she had to hide and hold and eat to get to where she is. And Megan has decided to stand up for herself and say, I'm not going to do it. And like, I wonder what that unleashed. But I agree with you, Jamilah. Megan is another avatar for all of the BS and like, y 'all just going to keep attacking this woman. It's just, honey, she definitely stands

Lark: 

We love Meg, I feel like what you said, Jamila, about the younger generations, I feel like I see it in her fans, you know, and in her ability and support to persevere. You know, like you said, she's very well -resourced. Other past women have been too and haven't, I don't think, quite been able to do what she's been able to do. So I hope that's a little bit of hope for the future. A big lofty question. Your dream, dream worlds. What does it look like if we believed and supported Black survivors wholly? Like, what is that? What's that world look like? And do you think we can get there?

Jamilah: 

In my dream world, we're doing preventative work, right? So we're not waiting until somebody is harmed. We're talking to children, you know, from a very young age about bodily autonomy and respect and consent. You know, uh, we're dealing with two, three generations of adults who were taught nothing about consent as it relates to sexuality. You know, so just, I think of the Kobe Bryant rape trial, I think of Derek Rose, who, you know, got in court and literally said, I don't know what consent means, right? And I believed him that he did not know what consent meant. So I think in my dream world, we are preventing, um, these things from happening. And when they do happen, you know, there's no shame in being a victim. There's nothing wrong. I understand the point of saying survivor as opposed to victim, you know, but there's nothing shameful about being a victim either, you know, and that you're not expected to be this warrior or this strong, infallible person because something bad happened to you, that you're allowed the vulnerability to, you know, actually be a victim.

Tarana:

I don't think it's far off from what Jamilah is saying. I think that we have really entrenched in our community, we can have these conversations inside the Black community without this stigma that we are not growing up our little girls before it's time, that we are not saddling them with, you know, labels and tags of fast and all, all of these kind of things so early. And we're not making them responsible for their own safety. We have things like comprehensive sex education curriculums in schools, so that these kids are learning things like consent and boundaries very early. And that becomes age appropriate year over year over year. So when they graduate, they haven't just heard the word maybe twice in their whole school education. So that becomes, it's, it's a resocialization, right? It's a resocialization about how we interact and care for each other. This is deeply about power. I think when we talking about the, the violence that happens, intra-communally. And so there's some other issues that have to be solved. So we have to kind of close ranks and start thinking about this as a social justice issue that's affecting large members of our communities, not men versus women. We have to think about the humanity of black women differently altogether. In order for us to have a deep change around sexual violence.

Lark: 

Tarana, Jamila, thank you so much. I hope the rest of your day and weekend is calm and has some, some joy in it. We're clasping onto joy wherever we can. 

CREDITS:

Hearsay is a Wonder Media network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It's hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis and Hilary Woodward. Our producers are Taylor Williamson, Adesuwa Agbonile, and Luci Jones. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer, and Maddy Foley is our editor. Show art by Andrea Sumner.

BLOOPER

Lark:

Separate the art from the artist. Like he’s actually not that

Jessica: 

And I did put that in my, I did put that in my research, right? 'cause like we say, every season we do do research for the show. Um, 

Lark:

And every season I say speak for yourself