As our country has collectively decided to rally around women athletes, the stark racist and sexist wage gaps of professional basketball players has taken center court. Black women have been the backbone of entire industries—including sports leagues—and it is essential that they be fairly compensated for their work, so why aren’t they? WNBA stars Alysha Clark and Aliyah Boston and Executive Director of the Women’s National Basketball Players Association Terri Carmichael Jackson join us to talk about the intersectionality of it all and how we can really support Black women.
As our country has collectively decided to rally around women athletes, the stark racist and sexist wage gaps of professional basketball players has taken center court. Black women have been the backbone of entire industries—including sports leagues—and it is essential that they be fairly compensated for their work, so why aren’t they? WNBA stars Alysha Clark and Aliyah Boston and Executive Director of the Women’s National Basketball Players Association Terri Carmichael Jackson join us to talk about the intersectionality of it all and how we can really support Black women.
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Hilary:
Hi, I am Hilary.
Lark:
I'm Lark.
Jessica:
And I'm Jessica. And welcome to Hearsay where we deep dive into the cultural moments that live rent free in our heads and probably yours too. And today y'all better have my money.
Lark:
Don't act like you forgot.
Jessica:
I’m staring at a table. It's just a laptop and a knockoff Stanley water bottle. There's no money here. But in all seriousness, for real, for real, we are talking about paying Black women, which is why Lark is asking for a half-check. I'm asking for a full check.
Lark:
No that's funny. That's funny
Hilary:
You stepped on it too fast
Lark:
Just like I can only celebrate half of the Black history month.
Jessica:
Yes.
Lark:
I can only get half of my wage. I have to find the median.
Jessica:
So you’re getting half of equal pay. You getting the women, half will kick it and then I'll go over a hundred. But yeah, we are talking about paying Black women, but they're owed. Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
I feel like most people, I was never told, like I wasn't taught about the wage gap or that in hard numbers you will lose almost a million dollars in your lifetime, you know? But definitely had women and especially Black women mentors tell me like, you kind of have to be on your shit a little bit more. You gotta be above and beyond, you know, some of the respectability politics stuff we've talked about before. How you assimilate and show up in the workplace is really gonna make a difference. Um, which is a shame that that conversation ever needed to happen in the first place. But I do feel in that regard, I was warned I think a little bit more than some of my other Black friends based on our like, colloquial conversations. Um, and so I think I came into the workforce ready to negotiate, you know, I'm solid millennial, ready to negotiate, you know, and talk about that and be on alert about asking all my white men peers what they were making. I was lucky my first job out of college to be close friends with a lot of the people I worked with, which were a lot of white men. And we all talked about what we made, you know, and be made sure during our relative review cycles, you know, to stand up for each other and to share what we were being offered. Um, but not everyone has that opportunity or chance. And, um, it's just, yeah. It's so disheartening. It's anger-inducing, like you said, that no matter what, we're still gonna have this discourse, this conversation about who's worth what and who's earned what. You know, we don't say earned in at National Women's Law Center 'cause you haven't earned to be underpaid because you're Black. Like that's insane. And it's just turns into the worst vibes, this fake argument to blame everything else but misogynoir, that you're not paying people because they're Black women and you hate Black women. So…
Jessica:
Because you're not even talking about like the actual work itself. It's literally the person doing the work. And because you're a woman, you're not gonna get this money for the work, even if it, no matter what the work is.
Lark:
Yeah.
Jessica:
And that's insane.
Lark:
Insane. And it, we see it like at every level, right? Like, it doesn't get better when you're older or have more degrees or what industry
Hilary:
The gap’s still there.
Lark:
Yeah it’s still till you die.
Jessica:
And the line keeps moving
Hilary:
Yeah. It doesn't matter what your job is.
Lark:
No, no. So it like, it's not about tha.
Hilary:
Which we tell people all the time, there's a lot of wage gap deniers out there and they always say, the market
Jessica:
And they're not all men
Hilary:
No. No. 'cause people..
Lark:
But they're all in our mentions, I will say that
Jessica:
They’re not all men, but they are in our mentions.
Hilary:
The market, the market pays you what you're worth. And it's like the market does not do that. The market's not a free and fair market, by the way. But Yeah. I, you know, it's funny, Jessica, at the start of this question, I was thinking about it, and obviously I'm white
Jessica:
Because your mom, I'm assuming knows ASL
Hilary:
Oh yeah. I mean her
Jessica:
So technically knowing like a whole other language.
Hilary:
Right, right. And she has a master's degree. She…
Jessica:
Is helping like a very underserved sector, but being paid less than your dad.
Hilary:
Right. The other piece of it is that she would, she would do extra teaching. She, so she would also teach, um, parents who needed to learn ASL so she teach. You know, she'd hearing people ASL and then she also would teach ASL at the same college where my dad worked as an adjunct and get paid, you know, nothing.
Lark:
Oh my God.
Hilary:
Cause adjunct professors never. And so like, there's so much gendered stuff inin that. And, but as I was sitting here thinking about it, I kept thinking about the NBA and the Wwn BA Mm-Hmm.
Jessica and Lark:
Literally.
Hilary:
But we decided which one we value more. And,
Jessica:
And then we're just like, yeah.
Hilary
And Right. And then we say the market wants that and that's not the case. It's in fact
Jessica:
Not anymore.
Hilary:
It's, it's like where is the money and where's the power and where are we welcoming men in? Where are we..
Lark:
Choosing to put the money
Hilary:
Not welcoming women in because, you know, family
Jessica:
And to quickly like pivot to sports just for a second. It's like when Lark tried to watch March Madness at a bar in DC
Lark:
Ohhh my gripe.
Jessica:
That was offering like drink specials based on March Madness. And um, they were not doing it for the women.
Hilary:
Peg them. This is your moment
Lark:
Blue jacket in Navy yard DC on my list. It's my life's work to take them down.
Jessica:
And so when you said that and just talking to y'all like, and made me go to my parents who are avid sports watchers. But, you know, before March Madness, I hadn't really seen my parents like watch women's sports. And so I asked both my parents and my mom was like, usually the commentary was trash on women's sports. Otherwise, though, I like women's sports. Like, we watch, like we'll watch definitely at least like the final games of both.
Lark:
Cause they don't invest in it.
Jessica:
Yeah, exactly. But she's like, it was literally just like the commentary and like also some channels don't show it. This that and the other.
Hilary:
Right. It's hard to find it
Jessica:
Which is so crazy. 'cause it made me go and like, talk to them because I never asked myself because I just didn't watch sports in general.
Hilary:
Right. You're not the
Lark:
You’re an equal opportunity.
Jessica:
I'm an equal opportunity. I don't care ball go across court, field, whatever
Lark:
But now you're in. You’re like
Jessica:
Now I'm learning. And I'm like, no, but like, actually why don't we watch things equally? 'cause it's literally the same thing.
Lark:
Well, and now the discourse, like you said, you know, the whole thing this year was everyone can name women college basketball players and no one can name a male college basketball player. Right.
Jessica:
True.
Lark:
The women were the coolest thing. They were as talented. Their games were more exciting to watch blah, blah, blah. All of that is true. But we still are having these weird conversations of where the male dominated sports world is telling us you did it. Here's, you know, here's this. They're stars, they're popular. Maybe they're getting top NIL deals
Jessica:
All their jerseys are sold out
Lark:
But we have season premiere of, uh, WNBA games not shown on TV. That's someone streaming it on Twitter that 2 million people watch. Like, so we're still doing that. We're still having their salaries.
Hilary:
I think it was a preseason still, but Yeah. Yeah,
Lark:
Yeah. But it's stars. It's stars.
Hilary:
But there were 200,000 people on the live stream. Right.
Lark:
Yeah. That, that, that's nuts. And then we have all of their, uh, most, I should say of their state of WNBA stadiums are not equipped to handle the fans that they now have. So they're now moving all their games
Jessica:
In DC.
Lark:
In DC in, um, Chicago, like they're all moving their games to where the men play. Which, hey, hear me out. What if it was the same? What if we had equal? What if we had equal places to play?
Hilary:
The audience is there.
Jessica:
Right. Because thinking about like, at least in DC the DC stadium, which has had its own kerfuffle this year, but is accessible technically by every metro line.
Hilary:
Right.
Jessica:
Um. It's very, very accessible. Like very central
Hilary:
It's the center of DC.
Lark:
Literally the center of the city.
Jessica:
Versus the women's stadium was, isn't it, wasn't it in Southeast?
Lark:
Yep. It’s across the river.
Jessica:
And like Southeast is very unaccessible by metro.
Hilary:
It's, it’s not close
Jessica:
It's literally separate but equal. But it's like not.
Lark:
Yes. And it's also, if you build it, they will come. The women's soccer team in DC had this similar thing. They had a stadium out in the, well, it was the middle of nowhere to me because I never leave the city limits. But it, it was not acceptable to public transit.
Hilary:
There were two, I mean they've had two very far places. One way out in Leesburg and the other way up in German.
Jessica:
Leesburg?!
Hilary:
Yeah. And one in Germantown.
Lark:
That was the closest they got.
Hilary:
And they were also like, fields for
Jessica:
And now they’re at Audi field.
Hilary:
For lower levels of boys sports.
Lark:
Yeah. They were not like professional
Hilary:
Yeah. They weren't professional-level fields.
Lark:
They started having a couple like friendly games at Audi Field where DC United, the men's team plays. And lo and behold, they sell out. Oh, everyone wants to come see them. And they realized how much money they could make having their games at Audi Field. And now guess what? All their games are at Audi Field. Every game this season, they've broken, it's been a top attendance record,
Jessica:
Which Navy yard isn't super accessible, but at least it's where all the stadiums are.
Hilary:
it's metro accessible.
Jessica:
It's metro accessible.
Lark:
It's metro accessible. And it's, yeah. It's, you've made it equivalent with the other sports teams.
Hilary:
It’s next to the national stadium.
Jessica:
That's what I'm saying. It's where other stadiums are.
Lark:
Right. It's where the men’s team plays.
Jessica:
It’s where communities are being invested in.
Lark:
It's, and I feel like we have these people making these base takes still trying to hold on to this like women's sports you know, are still not as good. And especially with basketball, you're mostly talking about Black women. Like you're literally trying to cling on to
Jessica:
which is the whole…
Lark:
The whole point.
Jessica:
And that's why with like Caitlin Clark, it's like now it's like, oh my god, Caitlin Clark is so getting paid this much. And it's like, yeah.
Lark:
So are all the Black women!
Jessica:
And all the other Black player that have been playing for years. Also, of all the people that have been advocating for this for years. Why was Brittany Griner in Russia in the first place..
Lark:
Right. Like, people are not making that cognitive choice,
Jessica:
Even though she'd been playing for years.
Lark:
Yes.
Jessica:
Like, I'm glad it's finally happening. That we're talking about it in basketball and it's almost sitting, 'cause we talked about it in soccer. We talked about it in tennis. We're talking about it in basketball now, but it's still like, we cannot just be like, Caitlin Clark's not getting money, so something needs, something's wrong. It's like, no, we need to talk about how the same financial security has not been given to Black women as has been given to the Black men and all of the men in the NBA. And that has consequences. Not just like, oh, I can't have three houses, I can only have two. But like legitimately
Lark:
Right. It's your life.
Jessica:
It's your job.
Lark:
Yes.
Jessica:
And because we live a capitalistic society, our jobs are really important for literally everything
Hilary:
Survival.
Lark:
Yeah. Well, and just like, it irks me. I love that there's so many new fans in our welcome and are like, yes, let's join this fight. Let's do it. But similar to every other movement and fight, like you gotta do your research, you gotta listen to the history. Right? Like Sheryl Swoopes, Lisa Leslie, Dawn Staley, like all of these Black women have been doing that. They started the league. Like, they, this work is not new. It's not something that's like, just now shocking. Everyone knows everyone who's been involved with the league, who's played in the league, who has watched the league, knows that it's not new. And it's, it's beyond just pay too. Like it's, it's, it's so sad to see that it mirrors again at every single level. They're not getting the same pay. Right. They're not getting the same equipment and circumstances. They're not getting the same sponsorships. And even with NIL, it's still not the same. You can make your NIL
Jessica:
Do you wanna define that for people?
Lark:
Oh, yeah. What, uh, name, image and likeness. Recently the NCAA and Supreme Court ruled that college athletes can make money off their name, image, and likeness notoriously.
Jessica:
Because before
Lark:
No, no money for them.
Jessica:
They could not that, that's a whole other beef.
Lark
Schools could make. You can sell jerseys, private companies can sell all this stuff.
Jessica:
Even though like 2% or less of people were playing that were playing college sports, were going on to professional sports. And were finally making somewhat of an income versus accepting in women's basketball. No, they weren't. Right. Um, but in college you could not be paid. Like, because you were a student, that was your pay. And you had to be treated completely, equally. You couldn't get any extra treatment, um, any extra money, any extra resources, even though. And even though you didn't have time to study, you weren't actually getting an education,
Lark:
You couldn't work. Your practice schedule and being a student, you can't make money any other way. Right. The school, the world is making tons
Jessica:
Millions.
Lark:
Like college sports money is unbelievable
Jessica:
Millions.
Lark:
Sickening. If you look it up, it's, nuts.
Jessica:
Especially in southern schools.
Lark:
Yeah. And so, or just big, you know, if you're at a big basketball school, you know, if you're at South Carolina, if you're at
Hilary:
D1 Schools.
Lark:
Right. If you're at Uconn or something like that. So everyone thought, oh, and I, this is gonna be the bastion of equality. Right? Everyone can get the deals that they want. And I will say brands, big brands, especially, I'm thinking like Gatorade, Nike, Adidas, um, Under Armour, even like the Curry brand, they have stepped up and made it clear that their choice is to promote women athletes and to do that. But that is beyond your pay as your job. Like, that's like your side hustle. Like you also should be paid the same for your job. Right. And it's like, you should get revenue sales, a percentage of revenue sales from jerseys as a professional, like women, the WNBA does not get that. You should have the same like tax options. Like they're not even allowed to like bargain over the same things that the men's league are. Like there's all these things that are like,
Jessica:
That’s such crap
Lark:
Tucked in as, think of it as like your benefits package that they're not allowed to get because they're women.
Hilary:
Well, and also like, more broadly, and we, we saw it this year with the, the draft, but like the, there aren't enough WNBA teams. The league hasn't been allowed to grow because people have refused to invest in it. And that is like tamping down what salaries can be and what, you know, like the competitiveness, like it's too hard for players to stay on teams so they like lose bargaining power that way cause there aren't enough teams. I just find, yeah the WNBA is such a good
Lark:
Microcosm.
Hilary:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica:
Like it's just one of the many pieces.
Lark:
Yeah. It's the ecosystem
Jessica:
That spell out pay Black women
Lark:
Black women in the league are having to do that unpaid labor, right? They're having to do the interviews, they're having to be on their social media saying, oh yeah, this is crazy. They're having to watch this discourse get in with, you know, I'm thinking of like A’ja Wilson and like she's,
Jessica:
And like Dawn Staley having to talk about trans women and trans people in sports.
Lark:
Right. To carry the torch continually while you're still being underpaid compared to men and white women. Yeah. It's, oh, I'm sweating you guys. I'm getting fired up
Jessica:
I told you, we’re having a rage fest.
Lark:
And you were right. You know?
Jessica:
Yeah.
Hilary:
There's so much about sports that tells you women are second all the time.
Lark:
Oh, like how they name the teams?
Hilary:
Yeah. So like the WNBA and the NBA, but like the W is extra. The, the thing for me with tennis is that when they do Grand slams, the men's final is always the culminating last event and the women's finals the day before. Even though the women's final, as we know for many things now is garnering more viewership because it's better. So it, it's like there's still this thing that says this is the actual and and best part. And I've heard that the NWSL has thought about rebranding. And I think they should just be the National Soccer league. And then just like drop the w and screw MLS. Yeah. That's my, uh,
Lark:
BecauseIt's already, yeah. MLS is different. Just be the drop the W. I mean things are getting better in terms of the wage gap for Black women, but we've definitely gone a long way to go. Um, I'm glad people are bringing attention to things like the WNBA salaries and how whack they are and the way that brand and sponsorship deals are allocated between Black women versus white women. But we definitely wanna dig a little deeper with some people who have firsthand knowledge, which is why we are gonna be talking to Terri Carmichael Jackson, executive director of the Women's National Basketball Players Association, which is the WNBA's Union and two iconic WNBA players, Aliyah Boston, and Alysha Clark, who on top of being incredible athletes are both key figures in union player leadership. I will be living out my sports reporter dreams and I can't wait.
INTERVIEW
Lark
I am over the moon to be here with three legendary Black women. Terri Carmichael Jackson, the ED of the W-N-B-P-A Aliyah Boston, a forward for the Indiana Fever, and the primary representative for her team in the W-N-B-P-A and Alysha Clark, a forward on the Las Vegas ACEs and the newest member of the union's executive committee. Today we are talking about equal pay for Black women and the way that the conversation has ramped up in general around equal pay for Black women, but specifically around women's basketball. Let's jump right into it. Alysha, I'm gonna start with you. So you got drafted in 2010, officially got into the league in 2012. I'm wondering what you were told about the pay for the WNBA, which is majority Black, um, before you entered and kind of did what, you know, alter your experience of trying to get into the league.
Alysha:
Yeah, so when I was coming into the league, um, you know, at the time there wasn't as much talk around the pay honestly. Um, just because it was like a standard, that's what it was. And everybody knew it. And so it was more-so like the opportunity and how hard it was gonna be to even make a team in this league. Um, and when I came in it was a very heavy veteran league. Um, and so I knew coming in I was gonna make, you know, whatever the minimum was at that time. I think, Terri, you can probably correct me, but I think it was like right around maybe 50,000 or less, honestly. Um, so you just knew that's what it was gonna be. Um, but there was a sense of like pride if you could make such a hard league and you could stick and be here, um, regardless of the pay, because the best of the best played in this league. And so for me, it was just like you knew what you were gonna get. What you were gonna get is what you were gonna get. And you know, good luck trying to make a team and you know, you hope that you can have at least a fair chance to do so,
Lark:
That's so interesting to hear. 'cause I think a lot of people think, you know, in their, what we consider like a normal nine to five job that happens. Like we talk a lot about pay transparency and how talking about your salary with your coworkers or colleagues can help close the wage gap. But I think a lot of us who are not in professions like the WNBA would think that's not the same. So it's so interesting to hear that it's the same, um, for you all as well. And Aliyah, you are a player who I think a lot of people probably credit with the boom of popularity and kind of the test case of all of the brand deals you secured and transitioned, um, into the league with from college coming out of the NIL class. So I'm wondering how your prep into the league differs from Alysha’s story.
Aliyah:
Yeah, so for me, obviously we had NIL and so that was like, that was the conversation. The deals you make, the money, you get off those deals. Like that was what was emphasized all the time. And I remember when I had my decision to make, because I could have returned to South Carolina for one more year, everyone, the first thing they would say was, you're gonna make way more money in college. And that was like what they always said. It would be like, why don't you just come back? I guarantee you can make this amount of money to go. Like you're basically, I'm lowering whatever I was doing right now at South Carolina to go to the league. And it was so crazy because I would always try to fight back. 'cause I'm like, what are you guys talking about? Like, I feel like it is something that I think they just wanted to say to honestly discredit what was happening in the W um, and the growth that's to come. Because I mean, when you think about it, like, I would tell people all the time, like my paycheck is basically my cost of attendance. Like NIL deals or um, brand deals I do now in the pro. Like those still come like that is simple. But if I'm looking at what I'm bringing home every month or every two weeks compared to what I did in college, I am making way more money here. Okay. Like my cost of attendance checks was
Lark:
Yeah. I feel like another theme for this conversation is people on Twitter being wrong, like people thinking they understand how things work. So thank you for clearing that up. If we had any of those people listening today. Terri, I wanna ask you, as the executive director of the players union, I'm wondering, um, how you center pay equity in your leadership? And you're a lawyer too, right?
Terri:
Yes. All the things. I'm a lawyer, executive director. I have the best job in the world. Absolutely. Um, you know, when it comes to to pay equity, you know, how, how you center that, how you work on that starts with our mission. You know, uh, the, if you go to the mission statement of the W-N-B-P-A, it's all about how we look to protect and serve our members, the WNBA players, um, how we look to make sure that their working conditions, which absolutely includes how much they are paid, you know, are right, are proper. So if we start with our mission statement, we start with our core values that talks about investment and ensuring that players are valued properly in the workplace, well then I know what my job is. And you, you've heard from Aliyah, you've heard from Alysha, you know, and particularly what Alysha was talking about, you know, I I think girls and women in sports particularly, but it's probably true across many industries, they're made to feel grateful for what they have. And so some of what Alysha was talking about was just being grateful to have the opportunity, you know, to compete for a roster spot and being grateful for the opportunity to, to secure that roster spot and kind of stick in this league because it's still, though we're growing, it's still the hardest league to make as a professional athlete. So this is the top of the top, the elite of the elite, um, right here on this podcast and, and across this league. So for me, I am very hyper-focused on ensuring that their working conditions and particularly pay are proper. Um, we did a lot of work to kind of make up the ground that Alysha was talking about, going from that $50,000, you know, and increasing what the minimum is and what the maximum player salary is. But yet you have seen this growth. I've been in this job for nine seasons. Nine seasons, that's so cool. And year over year they are topping themselves. And so, you know what we see this rookie class doing what we've seen Aliyah do, what we've seen Alysha usher in this momentum has just kept going. And so we gotta look at, we gotta look at pay again and we gotta make sure that they are getting, you know, their value and and particularly in this business model that they have built.
Lark:
Exactly. Yeah. And I think it's so interesting what you brought up, Alysha, what you brought up Aliyah, of these kind of misconceptions, right, that women and every job get told that, that be grateful, be lucky you're even here. Oh, if you take that opportunity, you're actually gonna make less money. You know, you're gonna lose out on other opportunities. Or, you know, Black women just don't work as hard or they take other jobs. And we're sitting here on this call, we've got incredibly successful decorated Black women athletes. Alysha, you've won championships with Seattle and Vegas, Aliyah, you were the unanimous 2023 WNBA rookie of the year, AP rookie of the Year. Yet again proving all of that wrong. I'm wondering if you both could kind of give us a little taste of what your response is to people who still believe things like that. Alysha, we'll start with you.
Alysha:
Lark:
Amen.
Alysha:
And so they hold no like weight in my everyday life. Like yeah. As you know, as athletes, we're on Twitter, we engage with our fans, we engage with people and you know, different followers. So there's a, there's an element that you do see and pay attention, but at the end of the day you just remind yourself like Bob over here with no picture and you know, was sitting on his Twitter all day tweeting me like, I'm still over here getting paid to do what I love to and I'm still working and accomplishing things that they'll never be able to. Um, so whether or not he has
Terri:
Amen.
Alysha:
Like chime in and throw a little, you know, a little shot here or there 'cause I got time, some days
Lark:
Have a little fun.
Alysha:
Lark:
That's incredible. Aliyah, do you take a same approach of not my business?
Aliyah:
Yeah. I mean, sometimes, honestly, sometimes I like read them for like, uh, like comedy purposes because like sometimes, sometimes they're really funny. But to me, like I look at it and I'm like, there's no way like people can sit here and like say the stuff that they say. Like knowing that like at the end of the day, like they're watching us, like they're talking all this smack, but they're like literally sitting down watching us play, which like, at the end of the day, like, I mean that's like we are, we're the ones shining. Like at the end of day you're literally sitting down like thinking, oh, what can I say today? Like, after you've already watched our game, after you've watched us to have 20 and 15 after you, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's literally just insane. And sometimes I look at it, I'm like, wow, that's a chuckle.
But I think something I also started doing was really like using my block button. I feel like I honestly have perfected the use of just clicking the three dots at the right. And then I just click block and I never have seen it again. Like I, I really, honestly, I just did it today.
Alysha:
Yeah,
Aliyah:
It's such an amazing feeling because like we're out here like doing our job, we just come out here and play basketball and win basketball games and we're having fun doing it. And I feel like there should be no reason why we let someone else like affect that someone else affect our happiness coming out on this court every single day. And so I just, I literally block the haters. That's, that's literally what I do.
Lark:
I support. Yeah. More people need to use the block.
Alysha:
Lark:
Well, it's just, so like you said, it's so I'm on our social media team here and it's like the amount of people every day in our mentions, it's like, get a job. What, how do you have this much time? Like I, I don't even look at our content that much and I make it
Terri:
Well, first of all, all if anybody hasn't been watching women's sports over the last few years, shame on them. And they definitely better be watching now. And particularly watching the women of the W um, with respect to pay. You know, I, like I said, I've been in this job nine years and I, I think though there is, there are some signs that there is hope that there, you know, that there is progress, I think I still am a little frustrated and a little disappointed with, with what I see, um, and what the conversations are. And, and you're right, Lark, this is a, a league of professional women basketball players, um, top of the top and, um, largely Black and brown players. Um, so this is a league in which pay becomes a real focal point. And, um, you know, I'm, I I think my source of frustration and disappointment comes from the fact that folks are still not recognizing what these women are doing on the court and off the court and how they have really built their brands. And, you know, for some reason it seems as though the goalposts seem to move every time, you know, they have achieved and they have established themselves and suddenly that's not good enough. There needs to be more.
You know, there was a kind of an unfortunate talking point that, that came from the league themselves about, you know, women can make up to, or players can make up to, I think their number was $700,000, you know, in this league. And I was like, you know what? That's, that's, that's false. That's misleading. Don't do that. Let's talk about what their salaries are, compensation opportunities to, to make additional money, yeah those exist. But when I talk about moving the goalposts and kind of changing, you know, the metrics and changing, you know, the way women should be valued and the way athletes should be valued, I look to that talking point and I say, shame on you for doing that because we know what the salaries are, the max salaries right now and yes, everybody, I've gotta work on that. But the max salary right now is anywhere from 230 to 240, 250. Right. $250,000. That's the max salary. So how do you get to 700,000? You gotta, negotiate a time off bonus. You gotta be the MVP of the regular season. And when you think about that, how many MVPs can there be there? There can only be but one. And so let's not, let's not send the message to women generally and to Black and brown women specifically. Let's not send the message that you've, you've got to be perfect in order to make $700,000. And not only that, there can only be one of you. Let's not do that. Let's value them properly in their salaries, the way we look, do for all the other industries. Let's value them in their salaries and then show them, you know, the additional, um, opportunities to make more money through bonuses. You know, let's talk about their salary and let's get that right. So I've seen it, I'm a little frustrated by it, but it energizes me to work even harder for these women.
Lark
Good good. Alysha, I saw you, you know, kind of counting your fingers, talking about the red tape it takes. I'm wondering what, what do you think it'll take for Black women to be paid kind of what we're owed, certainly in sports, but I know it's applicable to women, Black women working everywhere.
Alysha:
Yeah. Um, I mean, I was making those faces just because that's been like a really frustrating piece for me, uh, throughout this, like all the changes that I've been a part of in this league, right? And all the conversations that have been had, you know, the league is making these statements that yes, oh, players can make, you know, X amount of dollars, whatever, whatever. And it's like, yeah, that's for the 1 or 2% of the top players in this league. So that's for the players that already have endorsement deals that already have brands that are doing these things. But what about the rest of us that are in this middle tier? You know what I'm saying? And it's like, we don't get that opportunity. We're not making the $250,000 salary, we're making the middle salary. We don't have a lot of brands coming to us because they're coming to the best players on our teams and offering them those deals. So for me, like I have a, I have a different, uh, perspective from that, from that viewpoint because I'm like, it's, it's BS and they know it is.
And and that's the frustrating piece, kind of circling back to the beginning when, you know, we knew what the salaries were and it's like, oh, don't talk about it. But that's been with everything in our league. It's like, oh, well don't, don't bring that up because if you do, then they're gonna look at our league in a bad light. And it's like, well, things keep getting swept under the rug and nothing is changing. So until we bring light to these issues, until we bring light to things that aren't, to things that are being told that aren't the truth, nothing's gonna change. There's gonna be no accountability, there's gonna be no pressure on them to do better.
But I think that kind of just goes hand in hand with the like, be grateful, right? And you're in a league of Black women where it's like, we know we have to work two times as hard. We know we have to be two times as smart. We know we have to be, do above and beyond to just be considered in the same playing field. And it's like, okay, well we don't wanna like ruffle the feathers. We don't wanna be that person because when we, when we do, we're looked at in a different way. And so that's been the, the part for me that has really like made me happy is this younger generation, these young classes coming in, aren't afraid to step up and speak out, aren't afraid to show up as themselves, aren't afraid to challenge status quo. Um, and that's something that I think is what's gonna help push for Black women and and particular in our league, like to be able to be paid the same, is having players like that, that aren't afraid, that are gonna push that envelope and, and stand on it and not be afraid of it. And I think what you're seeing now, um, is more brands being like, wow, there are so many more stories to tell. There are so many other amazing women in, in this league. Let's like tell their story. Let's let's show these other little girls and boys that like you can find someone that's like you and be able to aspire to be that. And so this young generation has definitely helped push that narrative to where we can, you know, be in the same level of playing field with everyone.
Terri:
What she's talking about is, is truly energizing for us at the staff. As the staff of the union, it is energizing for us to hear that the players want us to push and do more and be, go big and be bold. And Alysha is absolutely right. And what we have seen are more companies kind of coming to us and talking to us, um, and looking to build partnerships. And they come in with terms that maybe are a little lower than what we thought, what we would expect, but because we're riding off of this energy of our members who say, go big and be bold, we're pushing them a little bit more and we're seeing partnerships, at least with the union, we're seeing partnerships with that ships that we haven't seen in a, in a long time. And I'm really, really proud of that. So it still gives me a little hope.
Lark:
Yeah, that's energizing for sure. And on both of those points, that's a trend we're seeing, um, nationwide too, where younger generations are saying we are gonna talk about what we're getting paid. Um, a big part of salary transparency too is only being offered what you've been paid before, right? When you apply for a job, they say, how much would you like to get paid? And if you only know what you've gotten paid, that's all you're gonna ask for. So, um, you know, we're doing work in states to kind of ban asking that question. To your point, Alysha, like, don't ask what we, you know, let's not incrementally move up from where we've been. Let's like, keep going. You know, I, I know what you can do. Let's not worry about what you've been giving us so far. Um, 'cause that's not a productive place to start. Um, and Aliyah, I wanna go to you. I'm wondering, aside from, uh, fervently and, uh, liberally using the block button, I'm wondering how you think we as, uh, Black women can continue to fight for all of these incredible things, equal pay and just respect without kind of getting discouraged. It can be heavy to take on this fight.
Aliyah:
It definitely can. And I feel like the biggest thing is like, don't go away. Like we know what we deserve to make. We know what we just deserve in general. And you know, sometimes like yes, you said it's easy to get discouraged, but I think if you are very passionate about how you feel about what you should be making or how you're looked at, whether that's in the media or just getting a job, like you can't shy away from like fighting that battle because like no one else is gonna fight it for us except for ourselves. And so to be confident, like I feel like that's something that like we're used to is like fighting, like as bad as that sounds like, I feel like that's just what we do. Like we fight no matter whose battle it is. Like I feel like Black women are always the first one to stand up, um, and try to defend the person next to 'em. And so we never get tired of fighting for someone next to us. So I feel like we can never get tired of fighting for ourselves because at the end of the day, like there will literally be no one else that stands up for us the way that we can and the way that we should other than ourselves.
Alysha:
Such a great point.
Lark:
We always like to end here with joy at National Women's Law Center. We always say for justice and for joy. So I am wondering to leave on a positive note, what's given y'all hope? What's given you life right now? It can be about basketball, it can be about Black girl joy. It can be about a new sweater you just got that you love. What's your joy?
Aliyah:
Oh, for me, I'd say it's definitely been like my family. Um, like I feel like there are always people that I always go to and I feel like even though they, they're not in Indiana with me, like we're always on the phone, we're always talking. So definitely just staying connected to them no matter what.
Lark:
That's awesome.
Alysha:
Yeah, I think for me it's twofold. Um, my niece and nephew, so my niece just started high school. My nephew, um, is eight. And so for them just being of the generation that like, they get to see strong women succeed and do things and it's normal to them. And so being able to plant those seeds for them at this young age, um, especially, you know, in particular my nephew too. I think it's been really awesome and, you know, getting to go home and be around them and just like see how they process and, and, you know, pay attention to what I'm doing. Um, I think it was, it was really cool to witness as they've gotten older. Um, and then the other thing for me is like seeing everyone, like in particular my teammates and just people from the league, like getting to have their moment. Like this is something that players have worked so hard for. And even people, I don't know anybody on like, on the Olympics, like I've been dying watching them all. I'm like, oh my, like, I'm in tears. I'm a big crybaby. But like, watching them win or compete and just seeing them shine in their moments, I'm like, how freaking dope is that? Like I've been cheesing ear to ear. So that's been, that's been bringing me a lot of joy too.
Lark:
What about you Terri? What's bringing you joy?
Terri:
What brings me joy? Um, I'm gonna be honest with you all and Aliyah and Alysha are gonna think I'm just saying this, but this job gives me joy.
Lark:
That's incredible. Thank you guys. Thank you so much.
Terri:
Aliyah and Alysha, Thank ya’ll. I appreciate you.
CREDITS:
Hearsay is a Wonder Media network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis, and Hilary Woodward. Our producers are Taylor Williamson and Abby Delk. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and Maddy Foley is our editor. Show Art by Andrea Sumner.
BLOOPER
Hilary:
I'm white
Jessica:
Huh???? this whole time?
Hilary:
I know. First you find out I'm a vegetarian