It’s been over a month since Lindsay Clancy’s murder trial ended and we still can’t stop thinking about it. The discourse about the case feels personal for many and has forced others to take a hard look at the ways our courts and healthcare systems treat mothers. Today on Hearsay, hosts Hannah, Gaylynn, and Uma break down the Lindsay Clancy case and the state of maternal mental health care with the help of Dr. Susan Hatters-Friedman. Dr. Friedman is a forensic and reproductive psychiatrist at University Hospitals in Cleveland, Ohio, whose research focuses on maternal filicide. She joins Hearsay co-host Gaylynn Burroughs to discuss her biggest takeaways from the case and what it will take to not just treat poor postpartum mental health outcomes, but prevent them.
It’s been over a month since Lindsay Clancy’s murder trial ended and we still can’t stop thinking about it. The discourse about the case feels personal for many and has forced others to take a hard look at the ways our courts and healthcare systems treat mothers.
Today on Hearsay, hosts Hannah, Gaylynn, and Uma break down the Lindsay Clancy case and the state of maternal mental health care with the help of Dr. Susan Hatters-Friedman. Dr. Friedman is a forensic and reproductive psychiatrist at University Hospitals in Cleveland, Ohio, whose research focuses on maternal filicide. She joins Hearsay co-host Gaylynn Burroughs to discuss her biggest takeaways from the case and what it will take to not just treat poor postpartum mental health outcomes, but prevent them.
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GAYLYNN: (00:02) Before I became a feminist policymaker,
HANNAH: (00:07) You were a Trad Wife.
GAYLYNN: (00:10) Hey everyone, welcome back to Hearsay. We're kicking off a brand new season of conversations about the pop culture moments popping up in your group chats with experts to help you make sense of it all. I'm Gaylynn and I'm a lawyer and a mother of a high school senior, which means I haven't had a good night's sleep in 17 years. I'm
HANNAH: (00:26) Hannah, also a lawyer, a writer, and dog mom to my son, Peter.
UMA: (00:31) And I'm Uma, and you can't take me anywhere, but I have heard that I have two kids who know that the motto in our house is fuck around and find out.
GAYLYNN: (00:38) My house too? Oh, yeah. Today we're talking about postpartum mental health on trial with the story that's been on my mind and pretty much everyone else's, the Lindsay Clancy case.
GAYLYNN: (00:49) If you haven't been following the news, Lindsay Clancy is a Massachusetts mother who was on trial for killing her three children. During her murder trial, which lasted seven days, Clancy's attorneys argued that she was suffering from postpartum psychosis when she killed the children and shouldn't be held criminally responsible. The case ended in a mistrial with the jury deadlocked 11 to one in favor of acquitting her on her charges due to her mental state at the time. This case is clearly really tragic, and we know that postpartum psychosis is really severe and extremely rare, but I think the reason why this case has hit a chord with so many people is because maternal mental health conditions are extremely common. It's one of the leading conditions that can be experienced as a complication of pregnancy and childbirth. And, you know, for me, it hit a chord because, as you know, I have a 17-year-old child, and even though I didn't personally experience a mental health issue, I know what it's like to get this, like, wriggly screaming alien from the hospital, and no one tells you exactly what it is that you're supposed to do.
GAYLYNN: (01:59) And even though I had done, like, all the parenting classes and all of that, I had had an emergency C-section that was fairly traumatic, and I was trying to figure out how to go to the bathroom. Oh, gosh, yeah. Um, and how to, like, care for myself, and also trying to comfort this child. And it was just, it was really overwhelming, and especially in those first few months, it felt really isolating. So, Uma, you talked about being a mom.
UMA: (02:26) Yeah, I can talk all day about being a mom. I mean, it's fuckin' wild. Am I allowed to say that? You know, I have said this to, um, probably anybody who will ask, but a lot of times, especially at this point in my life, I think, like, younger, sort of earlier career folks who are sort of, like, thinking about, like, how do I sort of navigate this? And they wanna talk about some of these issues, I say that it is both the most illogical thing that you can do. I think it is one of the best things and most meaningful things I've ever done in my life, but it's also, frankly, the dumbest thing I've ever done. One of the first indicators of poverty is having children. Um, and you are also about to embark on a journey that in so many different aspects and ways along that journey are wholly unsupported in this country.
UMA: (03:09) We can have a whole 'nother episode talking about the childcare crisis and all of these other aspects of that. You find out you're pregnant, right? And you go through the, like, earliest I did, which is, like, I was sitting at a croissant shop and I, like, slapped the test down in front of Satish, and I was like, "I got drunk and miscalculated. What's up?" What's up? And so, like, and you sort of navigate that, right? Then you have to navigate the next logical step, which is care. And so what is that definition of care both for the expectant mother and also for the medical field in this country? Nobody told me, really, until the end, I think someone said, "Well, we wanna check in about postpartum stuff." But actually, the only time I took that survey was after I'd had my child. I have experienced multiple reproductive crises.
UMA: (04:00) I've had a stillbirth. I've had a miscarriage. Like, I've gone through a whole spectrum and range of stuff. But for the children I have, that care was good. I was in a really great practice here in DC, but not, no one talked to me about postpartum care. Even when you think about the classes that they encourage you to sign up for. I remember we had this, this class where it was about the birth, right? Mm-hmm. And I remember looking at Satish being like, "I feel like there's a team of people there to get me through that. What the fuck am I supposed to do with this kid after I have the kid?" The kid is clearly - The system is almost entirely set up for you to reproduce. Yeah. Yeah. And that's about it. Yeah. It is not about your care afterward, because it's sort of like, okay, you've got it.
UMA: (04:45) And if you don't have it then, because we haven't invested in that, we haven't put language around it, you might not get it. It is really hard. There's this feeling of shame. There's a feeling of silence around it. You're only seeing, especially in your first, you're only seeing the people who have the kids who are, like, out looking well-rested - Yeah. And looking like they know what they're doing. And in this day and age, you're only seeing the trad wives on Instagram who have however many kids and have somehow managed to bake sourdough bread and churn butter at the same time, right? Like, all of those things. So you have this environment of feeling like it's not okay to not be okay. That's right. And that is terrifying.
HANNAH: (05:30) You know what's interesting? So I do not have human children, but I know that I don't wanna give birth. I will say I'm at an age where a lot of my friends are having mostly their first children, and a lot of them have struggled with mostly postpartum depression, I would say. The other thing I think about as we've been talking about this case is, so I froze my eggs a few years ago, and in order to do that process, they had me stop taking some of my SSRIs, like mental health meds. And I immediately felt horrible. Yeah. And so they make, they make a lot of people while they're pregnant do that. And I was like, yeah, I, I couldn't be off my... Like I have depression before being pregnant or before postpartum. We can't set, set me up to have like double that. So I think that's really hard.
UMA: (06:16) One of the stats when we were pulling for this episode that I was also both completely unsurprised by and gobsmacked by is that postpartum depression in particular impacts 20% of women in the US. Those rates increase to up to 30% for Indigenous mothers and 40% of Black and Latina mothers who experience postpartum depression. For Asian American mothers and Pacific Islanders, those diagnoses increased 280% from 2010 to 2021. I think that's why it's, it's hitting, it's hitting home for so many people because whether you had it as a diagnosis or as like a long-term thing for a few months of just being in it, or whether it was the one day that you just didn't think you could go on, almost every single mother, not almost every single mother has gone through that.
GAYLYNN: (07:02) Yeah, for sure. And I think that, you know, for women of color and for Black moms in particular, there's an extra added layer. So I used to represent parents in child abuse and neglect cases. One of the things that I think, um, kind of made clear was that Black moms in particular are under a lot of surveillance - Yeah. At all times. So even if you feel like something might be wrong, the fear of coming forward is even greater because you're like, "Maybe someone's gonna take my child." Yeah. Mm-hmm. What's gonna happen? It's more than I am not perfect. It's that the consequences of me coming forward are so dire because we are full of judgment. We give judgment out like candy. We don't give out support.
HANNAH: (07:52) Yeah. And then the other final thing, honestly, that is a little bit different of a direction, but like, it is always interesting to me when a legal case takes over public conversation. And so, like, I'm always... When I hear that someone now knows the difference between an indictment and, like, actually being found guilty of something, I'm like, "Huh." So it is always interesting to me just when a case makes national news and people almost learn more about the legal system that way, and in my opinion, start to see a lot of, like, flaws in it. So I've also been thinking about it in that way.
UMA: (08:24) The discourse, if you're really looking at it, is a lot of folks who are like, "How is this even a ques - of course?" Like, because there are people who are saying, "Well, this is an excuse." And then you have a rush of folks who are like, "This is a re - a reality," right? Like, "I probably would have also had psycho - like full on psychosis if it wasn't for someone intervening - Yeah. Or because I got a key piece of education or perhaps I had a friend around me who could say something," right? Yeah. And so there's, there's just so many levels of tragedy in this - uh-huh. Scenario because, I mean, she was getting some help, but, like, you know, it sounds like maybe not the right type of help, and it was still may - perhaps a little bit dismissive. But the upside, if there, if you can even call it that, is that we're talking about it, right?
UMA: (09:06) And that hopefully sort of the domino effect conversations that are coming out of it, whether or not they watched the trial itself or had that conversation, they're seeing the surround sound discourse about it and find themselves in it. And potentially even what I'm really hopeful about is people who aren't parents yet - Mm. Might become parents later - uh-huh. Or expecting moms because now they know this is something that they should talk about. Yeah. They should, like, advocate for themselves because I don't know that we fixed the system yet, right, to have people, other people advocating for you fully yet.
GAYLYNN: (09:36) No, and you definitely don't want to end up in the criminal justice system. I'm really grateful that, Uma, you shared your experience, and Hannah, that you shared your experience. It's such an important topic for us, and that's why we wanted to have this conversation, because there's so much that gets misunderstood about mental health during and after pregnancy. And so I was fortunate enough to speak to our guest whose work is dedicated to better understanding mental health conditions that can lead to tragedies, just like Lindsay Clancy. I spoke with Dr. Susan Hatters Friedman. She's a forensic and reproductive psychiatrist at University Hospitals in Cleveland, Ohio. She's also a professor, and her research primarily focuses on maternal filicide, or child murder by mothers. Dr. Friedman has practiced in hospitals, court clinics, community mental health centers, and correctional facilities as one of the roughly 500 reproductive psychiatrists practicing in the US, and that's a small number I wanna point out.
GAYLYNN: (10:36) She reacted to the Lindsay Clancy case and shared her thoughts on what it will take for maternal mental health outcomes to truly improve. So let's dive in. Dr. Friedman, welcome to Hearsay. I'm so happy that you're able to join us. I'm excited for this conversation.
SUSAN: (10:54) Thank you. I'm so excited for the conversation. Thanks for inviting me, Gaylynn.
GAYLYNN: (10:57) Of course. So you are a forensic and reproductive psychiatrist, and I think for a lot of people, those are new terms. So before we get into our conversation, I was wondering if you could explain, what does it mean to be a forensic and reproductive psychiatrist?
SUSAN: (11:17) Sure. So, um, first of all, psychiatrists are, are medical doctors, so we go through medical school, and then any psychiatrist will do a, a four-year residency training. Um, after that, there's additional training in forensics or in reproductive psychiatry. A forensic psychiatrist, um, works at the intersection of psychiatry, mental health, and, and the law. So, um, that can be in various domains. It can be civil, uh, working with, with, you know, civil lawsuits, for example, for malpractice. It is criminal. That's an area where I, I do a lot of work in. So, for example, I do evaluations for judges, for lawyers of this person sitting in front of me who's been charged with a crime. Are they competent to stand trial? Were they insane at the time? Or are there other mitigating factors at the time? We do risk assessments on people potentially before, uh, violence has happened, but also thinking about releasing someone who's been found insane, uh, gradually back into the community over time.
SUSAN: (12:17) The other spaces that forensic psychiatrists work in, uh, corrections. So, for example, I run various forensic units of women who were found insane in a forensic hospital. I've worked in a forensic setting in a, in a women's correctional facility, so evaluating and, and treating women there after alleged offending or adjudicated offending. And then also when lawmakers or, or policymakers are, are making those decisions, forensic psychiatry has, has, uh, things to bring to the table with our experience. Reproductive psychiatry is specifically working around pregnancy, postpartum, working with moms or women with, with in vitro fertilization or, or pregnancy loss or mental health issues during pregnancy or in the postpartum anxiety, depression, OCD, postpartum psychosis. Uh, and then, then also around the, the time of menopause. So we, we think about the, the course of a, of a woman's life and, and the relationship of hormones, of these different roles that, that women have.
SUSAN: (13:17) And, um, we know that, for example, the postpartum year is the time in a woman's life where she's most likely to experience mental health symptoms. So it's a really important time for, for psychiatry to be able to be involved with, with women, with moms. Another thing that I do as a forensic and reproductive psychiatrist is I am part of a child fatality review team. They exist all across the US, and they occur on a county basis, but then there's a, a national body that, that takes all of the data as well. So in Cleveland, for example, we meet monthly and it's everyone whose service may have come into contact with the family or the child. So it's, it's law enforcement, it's EMS, it's the hospital, it's pediatricians, it's psychiatry, it's education, it's child protective services. And everyone's able to bring what they know about the, the family and the child to that meeting.
SUSAN: (14:09) And we are, with dignity for the child's life, looking at all of these things and thinking what could have prevented this, this bad outcome, this, this death, and then making recommendations that are local recommendations, and then there, there can be national level recommendations made as well. Um, big answer.
GAYLYNN: (14:28) Yeah, but you're doing such important work. And your profession has been put in the spotlight recently because of the Lindsay Clancy trial. You know, we know that her case ended in a mistrial and we don't know what's going to happen next, but I wanted to ask, you've spent decades researching severe mental health outcomes for mothers. How does the Lindsay Clancy case, or what we know about it, compare to others you encounter in your work, and does it reflect what you're used to seeing?
SUSAN: (15:01) So yes. Um, for, for me, uh, mothers who kill their children, infanticide or, or filicide, is, is something that's right in that intersection of reproductive psychiatry and forensic psychiatry that I've, I've spent a lot of time working on, thinking about, researching, e- evaluating people. When there's a case of a, a mother who kills her child, there, there tends to be this, uh, societal idea in a lot of cases that it, that it must have been due to mental illness. And some- sometimes it is, uh, some- sometimes it isn't. Sometimes there are other factors going on. So as a, um, forensic psychiatrist, reproductive psychiatrist, if I'm called by the, the court to do an evaluation, we, we do a mental health evaluation. We also look at medical records from before and after and interviews of not only the woman, but family and others who might give witness statements, um, the, the police looking at the scene, looking at, at body cam, et cetera, evidence, to try and gather an understanding of, of, of what happened in this individual case.
SUSAN: (16:00) Because as I'm saying, there's, there's different patterns, but each case, um, might be unique. And so really understanding, was there mental illness present? What, what was it? And how did that impact what, what happened? Uh, I think in the Clancy case, uh, with, with your question, we've, we've seen lots and lots of media interest, um, and, and we, we do see media interest when, when these cases happen, but I think not to the, the level that we've, we've seen this time. Uh, I was in, in training back when the Andrea Yates case happened in the early 2000s where she had postpartum psychosis that everyone agreed on, and then, um, she had killed her, her five children in an altruistic way, believing that she was saving them from burning in the fires of, of hell for eternity. And so I was, I was in training then, and I, I was able to go with Dr.
SUSAN: (16:51) Resnick when he testified and have a, you know, a, a front row seat to what was happening then. And I think at that point, also, 20 plus years ago, people were talking about postpartum psychosis and mental illness and infanticide, but we didn't have all the social media back then like we do now. So it's a really important conversation for, for us to be having, but it, yes, it's more interest, I think, than, than a lot of other cases get.
GAYLYNN: (17:15) What do you think the media is getting wrong when they talk about postpartum psychosis or, you know, perinatal mental health? And how have you seen it change from when you were in training with Dr. Resnick and the Andrea Yates case?
SUSAN: (17:30) So I, I remember very clearly back then on the Andrea Yates case, just there was not a lot of community knowledge about postpartum psychosis, and there was a bit about postpartum depression, but really people are surprised when someone has these, these symptoms and, and they may not have the language or, or know what to do with it or, or what help to get. And so I think now with the media, a lot more people are talking and asking questions about postpartum psychosis and postpartum depression. I think that's really important. I think the risk with the, the media coverage, which is true in, in some other cases as well, is if the only time we're hearing about postpartum mental illness is in the context of homicide, then people put those two in a box together in their minds. And what, what is important to know is it, it's very treatable, postpartum psychosis, postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, very treatable, and homicide is a rare, rare thing.
SUSAN: (18:27) Also, as I was saying, like, this is the, the time in a woman's life where she's most likely to have symptoms. And yes, it's important for her to notice symptoms and her partner if she has one to notice symptoms, but I think on a, a larger societal level, it's important that we have an understanding because, yes, person after person who I've seen with postpartum psychosis had never heard of it before and, and neither had their, their partner, and yet it's got all these symptoms that, that can be really scary and dangerous and, you know, people don't even know that it exists, it's a worry.
GAYLYNN: (18:58) One of the other things that people have been talking about with respect to this case are sort of the disparities that we see around how women of color may be given less access to certain services or be seen in a different way from white mothers. And in particular with this case, Latarsha Saunders, being a Black woman, who received two life sentences from the same judge that oversaw the Clancy case in a similar situation. In your experience, how have racial disparities played out in terms of access to care?
SUSAN: (19:41) I think racial disparities are a big issue, both when there's a forensic case of, of infanticide like this and also with, with access to care. I think that, uh, it's, it's really important that people think about this when they're looking at cases, as you point out, the case in the same courthouse, the same judge, and very different outcomes, but also very different media attention, very different public attention to the case, um, not, not the outpouring of sympathy that, that we saw in the Clancy case. There's a narrative about who's a good mother and when mental illness must be involved. You know, we see fathers treated differently in the legal system in these cases as well, and it's, it's really important, I think, that, that we're calling it out and, and aware of it so that that can hopefully change.
GAYLYNN: (20:31) Yeah. And I think that there's a, a lot of pressure when you're a new mom to, you know, feel happy, to fit into a box, feel a particular way. And so it can be really hard to, to talk about mental health generally, and then talking about it in the context of, you know, having a child is even harder. But I know that mental health conditions are one of the most common complications of pregnancy and childbirth, and psychosis is obviously extreme. What can you tell us about what factors, you know, lead to postpartum psychosis and how does it differ from other conditions?
SUSAN: (21:10) Great questions. So the postpartum period may be the first time that she ever experiences mental health symptoms. And yes, it's the postpartum, which we talked about being the highest risk period, but also a lot of times it's, it's someone's 20s, someone's 30s when they have the onset of mental health symptoms. We know that postpartum psychosis is most related to a diagnosis of bipolar disorder, but she may never have had symptoms of bipolar disorder before either. Um, and so who's at risk? We are generally thinking about moms in the postpartum. It tends to happen in the first couple weeks postpartum, though it can happen at other times, postpartum psychosis. If someone has a family history, a personal history of postpartum psychosis, or has bipolar disorder, then we're, we're more concerned about their risk. But like I said, it can happen to anyone. And you've got the, the hormone changes rapidly around that time and, and not getting sleep because the baby's up every couple hours and, and you're breastfeeding, et cetera.
SUSAN: (22:07) So, so these are things that, that elevate the, the risk as well. Now, the way postpartum psychosis presents is different than other mental illnesses. So whereas another common psychosis, schizophrenia, has a general onset, gradual onset over, over weeks to months, postpartum psychosis has a much more rapid onset. We're talking over the course of, of days that she's developing symptoms. And the symptoms she may have, uh, hallucinations, so hearing things that aren't there, seeing things that aren't there, so perceiving something with the senses that, that's not there. And it can seem very real to her. She may start getting special messages, like from, from the TV or from her phone that she feels are meant just for her that are, of course, not, not actually. Um, delusions, which are fixed false beliefs that are not consistent with her normal beliefs or her cultural beliefs that get in there and that she's not able to shake.
SUSAN: (23:02) Irritability, mo- mood difficulties, and then also confusion about normal things that she's used to doing. I've seen moms confused about how to feed the baby and, and, and not able to do that, uh, as well as just practical, uh, confusion, disorganization. So that's a, a lot of symptoms and it would be really scary to start experiencing those things. And like you're saying as well, scary to report to someone that you're having these things, what, what does it mean? What are they gonna think about me? Uh, are they gonna try and hospitalize me? Are they gonna try and take away my baby? Uh, et cetera. And, and there's also this waxing and waning. So there, there are some times where things might look all right. Um, and you imagine if someone goes in for a quick visit in the ER, they might be holding it together during the time that the doctor's in the room with them, but then have difficulty with, again, these, these serious symptoms that I'm talking about otherwise.
GAYLYNN: (23:57) It seems like screening is so key in order to be able to understand what's happening and also to provide treatment. But we also know that less than 20% of women are screened for maternal mental health disorders. Are there other risk factors that are things that we should be attuned to that aren't health factors, that are more societal?
SUSAN: (24:22) That's a great and complicated question. So first of all, you, you pointed out about l- low rates of screening, but then it's like once that screening even happens, there need to be services available, accessible, um, without a long wait time for her to get into in the community. As far as the screening piece, imagine someone's depressed and having difficulty functioning or having psychotic symptoms. They're gonna be more likely to go into those pediatrician visits with their child, um, which are pretty frequent in, in the first year than they are to, to follow up themselves. So they may miss their own OB-GYN appointment, but go into their pediatrics appointment. And so in, in recent decades, there's a lot of discussion about postpartum depression needing to be screened for in, in pediatrics because that's where, where the moms are going. And then there need to be accessible services, which differs depending on, on where someone is, which, which is an issue.
SUSAN: (25:17) Depending on the study, it's, it's about one in eight moms who have postpartum depression, which is a pretty big chunk of, of new moms. Um, but when you look at, for example, women with more stresses, more socioeconomic stresses, financial stresses, um, not, not having help from a partner, et cetera, you, you would expect that those rates go up of postpartum depression. And then as, as we've been talking about, you've, you've got the stigma, you've also got, how do I get to this appointment that I've made? And so, um, there are a lot of arguments for telehealth being a good thing as well because perhaps it's more accessible to, to get at least that first appointment. And so there's, there's a lot of pieces there, but I, I think getting doctors who are trained and, and appointment availability is a, an important thing as well as doing enough screening.
GAYLYNN: (26:07) Seems like you're saying that we have to meet people where they are, make sure that the interventions are happening where people, you know, show up, like the pediatrician's office, and actually making those points of contact accessible through telehealth and, and things like that. Going back to where we started, it doesn't seem like there are a lot of reproductive psychiatrists, right? Uh, so if I'm a new mom and I do feel that something is wrong, how would I go about making sure that I'm getting the right kinds of treatment? Or if I have, um, if my best friend has just given birth and I'm concerned, what do you suggest that folks do?
SUSAN: (26:47) So if, if someone's a new mom and they're experiencing symptoms, they might ask at their pediatrician's office for, for recommendations for referrals. They might call their health line for, for recommendations for referrals. Um, if it's an emergency, if they're having thoughts about harming themselves, thoughts about harming the, the baby, uh, then they would wanna, you know, call 911 or, or go into the emergency room, for example. Postpartum Support International, uh, also has ways that, that moms can, can reach out to them. And so it's, it's accessing services, uh, i- in, in one's community as well.
GAYLYNN: (27:21) I think it's so important, you know, as a mom myself, I remember, um, after having my own child feeling like, "What am I supposed to do now? I have this wriggly screaming thing." Yes. And, um, I didn't have a whole lot of support, um, coming out of the hospital. I didn't ha - I did not experience postpartum depression or a mental health challenge, but it is overwhelming to all of a sudden be responsible for taking care of a child your first time, right? Um, so it's so important that new moms have these resources and feel like they can ask for help and know that there are people who, who can provide support, whether that is for a mental health condition or, or for something unrelated. I feel like the conversation that is had when something happens is oftentimes about who do we blame? We wanna blame someone.
GAYLYNN: (28:19) And really, what you're describing is just tragedy upon tragedy.
SUSAN: (28:24) Yes.
GAYLYNN: (28:25) And a confluence of, of things about access to healthcare and mental health treatment, access to support that you need, whether that is just having a, a village around you to, to help you when you become a new mom to having what is considered a luxury in this country, access to paid time off to take care of yourself. Yes. And so I think it's important that we have a different conversation, not about blame, but about how do we prevent this? How do we help people? Because if we help women, we help families, we help communities, and I think it's just so important what you're doing and, and, um, your research and what you've said here today. I guess my last question is, what do you think is most important in terms of systemic change that we need to have to truly improve maternal mental health outcomes and to prevent these kinds of tragedies?
SUSAN: (29:21) I think it is all the different factors that we've been talking about today. We need to be doing screening and, and families and, and moms and partners need to know about maternal mental health issues because, like I'm saying, a lot of people didn't even realize that these exist yet they're predictable, et cetera. So there needs to be screening, there needs to be knowledge, there need to be available services. And we also need parenting knowledge, child protective services needs to be well-funded as well.
GAYLYNN: (29:48) Well, thank you so much for joining us on Hearsay.
SUSAN: (29:51) Thank you so much for having me, and, and thanks for focusing on this important topic.
GAYLYNN: (29:58) Hearsay is an Acast production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted by Hannah Finnie, Uma Mehta Iyer, and me, Gaylynn Burroughs. For Acast Productions, our producers are Paloma Moreno Jimenez and Vanessa Handy. Taylor Williamson is our editor. Our executive producers are Emily Rutter and Jenny Kaplan. For the National Women's Law Center, our producers are Vanessa Gonzalez and Victoria Wright-Mosby. Show art by Andrea Sumner.