Even as Black women reach the highest levels of our political system, they’re still faced with racist, sexist attacks we’d like to think are ancient history. Yet, we still depend on Black women to “save” us. No one knows the paradox of what it means to be a woman in politics better than Barbara Lee—who joins us for a special live episode as she reflects on her early days with Shirley Chisolm, her political career, and what the future holds.
Even as Black women reach the highest levels of our political system, they’re still faced with racist, sexist attacks we’d like to think are ancient history. Yet, we still depend on Black women to “save” us. No one knows the paradox of what it means to be a woman in politics better than Barbara Lee—who joins us for a special live episode as she reflects on her early days with Shirley Chisolm, her political career, and what the future holds.
Lark:
Hey everyone, it’s Lark here. Im just popping in to say Im so excited for you to listen to this special live episode of Hearsay talking about Black women in politics. As you’re listening, if you’re wondering why we don’t talk about the presidential campaign, it’s becuase the National Women’s Law Center is a 501c3 organization and we don’t get involved in elections. But this is an important topic and racism has no place in our elections. Thank you so much for listening and we hope you enjoy this important conversation.
Hilary:
Hi, I am Hilary.
Jessica:
Hi, I am Jessica.
Lark:
And I'm Lark. Welcome to Hearsay where we deep dive into the cultural moments that live rent free in our heads and probably yours too. And today we are coming to you live from Baltimore.
[Clapping]
If you are listening to this at home, that was our live studio audience here in Baltimore. We're so excited. Thank you guys so much for joining us, spending your Wednesday here with us. We're so excited. We've never done this before, so this is so exciting. Bear with us as we revel in this and maybe are a little bit nervous, but it'll be awesome with all these supportive faces in the crowd. Um, and today we're gonna be talking about what it means to be a Black woman in politics. Um, you can be a first and you'll be forever enshrined in the history books, but you then have to deal with literal threats against your life the whole time you're doing that. Um, women and especially Black women who are running for office, they're doing it in record numbers, it feels like cycle after cycle, but they're still met with the same sexism and racism that we would like to believe doesn't happen anymore. You know, it doesn't seem like something that should still be happening, but it very much is. Um, and you just kind of can't win, right? It's like tale as old as time. You can't be bossy, you know, but you have to have leadership qualities. You have to be good looking, but not like sexy. You can't be annoying, but you have to be bold. You know, you just can't win in and you're setup to fail. And if you're a Black woman, it's a thousand times worse. And that's true for every job, but certainly one that involves the public eye. But we're talking about all of that. I don't know if you guys have thoughts first.
Jessica:
You were talking about being a first mm-Hmm.
Lark:
Yeah, yes and I love those accounts that do that, that colorize pictures. Mm-Hmm.
Jessica:
It was not that long ago, but it's the, with the start of, we all talked about and researched Shirley Chisholm for this episode. Um, and that was in the seventies which was not that long ago. Um, but her being like talking about like leading the way for other people to be able to do it but with that, like you said, comes threats, but also the idea of you can't ruin it for anybody else.
Lark:
Yes. Yeah.
Hilary:
Like you get one shot at electing. Yeah,
Lark:
Yeah. One person. And I felt that when I watched Shirley, the Netflix movie about Shirley Chisholm. Um, Regina King plays her wonderfully. Barbara Lee, who we'll talk to later, um, is also a featured character. She was an important role in Shirley Chisholm's historic presidential run. And when I watched it obviously was very inspired. I had known quite a bit about Shirley Chisholm's story, but what also kind of sunk in after I watched it was, wow. It's the same thing. We have not gotten past that. We're still having these same conversations about the same type of women and like, still depending on Black women to save us when we don't pick them and don't stand up for them. Like, that's what was really hung on for me after watching it.
Hilary:
Yeah. The movie inspired me to start kind of like getting my numbers straight because you feel like, you know. Okay. Who have been the Black women senators that we've had in the United States Senate?
Lark:
So many,
Hilary:
So many.
Lark:
No.
Jessica:
And it's not even just Black women voting, but they're running like polling centers. They're running like, it's so many, like Black women are the backbone of so many things despite how little America shows up for them. And despite how little the government and people show up for them.
Hilary:
But we want them to sacrifice their safety.
Lark:
Everything.
Jessica:
Everything.
Hilary:
Their money, their talent, their families
Jessica:
Their stability,
Jessica:
And also still expect them to do the things that women are supposed to do. and also still wait their turn. Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
And all those roles.
Jessica:
All those things.
Lark:
The respectability, politics, the gender roles. And I feel like we've been seeing, you know, we always obviously have the historic firsts that seem so far away, but really are not. And I used to work at a digital fundraising firm and I feel like, that was during the 2018 cycle, you know, and it was all the most diverse slate of women running and winning. And this idea that, you know, women can run things better. Look at the mess men have got us in, especially white men, which is a hundred percent true
Jessica:
And that was in the movie, Shirley Chisholm kept saying, I am tired of people asking me if I'm serious about running for president.
Shirley Chisholm Clip:
So I realize that this is a rough road, but a catalyst for change in a society is usually persona non grata with those who have been the beneficiaries of the system. A catalyst for change has to be able to expand the insults, the humiliations, the abuses and the slurs. What's wrong with my running for president of this country? After all for 15 years, I have been the ghost writer for a lot of them.
Jessica:
And I like paused it. 'cause I was like, but she's so right. Yeah. Like as some white guy was like, I'm running for president. I, I went to, I'm, I'm a shout it out. I went to the George Washington University. I can't tell you how many white boys are walking around like I'm gonna be president in 2036.
Lark:
Yeah.
Jessica:
No one batted an eye at them. Like they're serious about the ambition to do it, but like, no one's gonna question that.
Lark:
No.
Hilary:
Or if you're running for office as a Black woman, then you're running to represent only your population as opposed to this country as if those aren't the same thing. And that, you know, you are only running to care about women's issues, not electable as we know at the National Women's Law Center that some, for some reason issues that are really critical to women and families are not funded, elected, prioritized.
Lark:
No, who cares.
Hilary:
Yeah
Jessica:
And yet men get to litigate on women.
Lark:
Yep. Yeah. Well, and I think too, like what the Shirley Chisholm movie got into a lot and what you see the person portraying Barbara Lee’s character struggle with is exactly that. Like, how do you come into this system and try to burn it down from the inside? Right. There's rules you have to follow. There is a game you have to play, but how can you do that and still stick with your morals and deal with all this other crap that's going on? And I remember when I was in my hilltern days, um, had the honor to, um, intern for a Black woman congresswoman and just seeing all the things she would go through and think about of how she presented and how she went about things and what certain issues she would take on. Always had her district top of mind obviously. But there was like, you know, things like what shoes she was seen in.
Like men can wear sneakers and walk around the house floor and all that. And she was always mindful to not be wearing like her comfortable flip flops until she got in the car. You know, like, and there's things like, that has nothing to do with the job you're doing or the person you are but it's going through her mind constantly in everything she does. And that like shouldn't matter at all. And men never have to do that. And I think, not to keep coming back to respectability politics, but that's looms so large in Black women's lives and certainly when you're in the public eye, I mean they like poll candidates over what hairstyle looks best. You know what like shade of makeup you wear, what colors you wear, what suit style you wear, you know, and that's, men don't have to get polled on that shit Like that's nuts.
Jessica:
It's a specific intersection too because it's not that women aren't critiqued or policed 'cause they are. But it's a specific intersection and it's also with the lack of representation as well that leads to just like the micromanagement and how like even if you can't find anything wrong, then like someone will find something wrong.
Lark:
Yeah.
Hilary:
Right. Or they just won't like you. I, uh, watching Shirley, my son, Henry came down and he is like, I'm explaining what we're gonna talk about. And I was like, you know, this is Shirley Chisholm, she ran for president in 1972. Do you think she won? And he was like, no,
Lark:
Yes.
Hilary:
And I was like, very good. Passes history lesson for tonight. But also keep watching this movie with me. Yeah.
Lark:
It's it's a good, it's a good movie. But yeah.
Hilary:
I mean it, there's a lot of like delegate drama.
Lark:
Which I thought was so interesting. Like, I don't know, being of cognizant mind now of like what's going on and how the math of all that is and you forget. I'm not someone who's ever worked on a presidential campaign so you forget how much of it is literally a numbers game and what you balance and bet. And I thought that was just so interesting that they went into that detail and I think helps to detract from have to, you have to tell her story. There's so many people that don't know her story. Um, but to take away from the part that people were trying to kill her 'cause she's a Black woman, right. She has this smart political strategy. Right. And this is, they were also attacking that, you know? She couldn't get staff. No one was taking her staff seriously. You know, she couldn't pay her staff as much as other people. And still how people used all of those systems. Used the convention, used delegates to cut her right at the last second. And she still remained like stoic and was like, you know, I always knew this was gonna be the risk. And that's, um, that's just how it is. And like always kept her grace, which was not something I could do, that's for sure.
Jessica:
Yeah. My mom and I back in 2020, we watched Miss America on Hulu, which is like the limited series and it mainly focused on Phyllis Schlafly
Lark:
Boo.
Jessica:
I think they advertised it as going a little bit more into um, Shirley Chisholm than it actually did. I feel like I only got like one or two episodes. I'm looking at my mom in the audience to be like, yeah.
Hilary:
And also let's like, take a moment to shout out Jessica's mom.
Lark:
President of the Hearsay fan club.
Jessica:
So we watch a lot of stuff together and we watched that together. We watched a lot of things in 2020. Good, bad, ugly. But yeah. Just talking about how the respectability, 'cause we're talking about it from, there are so many like men and white men in the process, but this movie was about white women.
Lark:
I was gonna say, yeah
Jessica:
It wasn't even just Phyllis.
Lark:
Betty Friedan and all of them.
Jessica:
But like once we get past, like, you know, once we get feminism forward, then we can get to you.
Lark:
Yeah, yeah Black women are always last.
Jessica:
They're always last. I was like, I'm also a woman.
Lark:
Yeah. And all the time she was asked those questions where every pointed question was, you know, when she, I think there's that scene where they're on a panel and they're like asking Gloria Steinem questions about feminism and like ask the Black women about being black. And they're like, do you not think I'm a woman? Also? Like, I also can talk about feminism actually. Like there's, they're intersecting, like you said.
Jessica:
Yeah. And both of those identities impact the other. So it's like the whole, it's the whole thing. Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
Right. Well, that's what I was gonna say. Like, it's also, yes, any woman, like we've seen women, I mean, Gretchen Whitmer was, they tried to kidnap and kill her. Like literally
Jessica:
Which we don’t talk about enough.
Lark:
And she's a white woman. Like we see people all the time who are elected to office their lives literally at risk. Nancy Pelosi's husband and her house under attack.
Hilary:
I always think about the one that like when AOC went on after January 6th and her IG live, which I mean it is like seared in my brain 'cause it was so visceral. She was explaining her fear, rightful fear of what was gonna happen to her while trapped in her office. And I, I was like, why are you, like you're not well. Like, you can't be well in this position and why would you do this? Yeah. It's amazing to me that she continues. Another piece on, you know, we talk about it's expensive, right? It's more expensive to, to be a Black woman to run for office in part 'cause security is really expensive.
Lark:
And you have to get it earlier in the campaign. You have to..
Hilary:
Right. And you have to pay for it. You don't get, you know, protection until you're elected into office. Stuff like that we don't even think about.
Lark:
Yeah. I mean, I remember in my Hilltern days again, um, so many Black women members of Congress have secret service that you don't see when they're at the nail salon when they're back home just existing, you know, not an official events and you know, you don't know they're there, but like that they can never be off. Right. You can never, even in your home, they're coming for you. Like you can't just go to the grocery store when you're back in the district. You can't do anything, get your hair done. You can't do anything like that without the threat that someone is going to come and try to literally harm you while you're just existing. Like, that's awful.
Hilary:
You can't even market which events you're gonna go to or promote them because then people know you're gonna be there and that's a security risk. And so you lose in that game too, right? Yeah. Like you lose press time, you lose the ability to like get people..
Jessica:
Promote local businesses.
Hilary:
Yeah, exactly.
Lark:
All of it.
Hilary:
Well have we depressed everybody enough? Yeah.
Lark:
Doing okay?
Hilary:
Yeah. We brought you down. Now we gotta bring you back up. We know that..
Lark:
Yeah. Like most episodes I feel like, especially this one we could go on for hours and hours and hours. But we will spare you all of that. All of you here in the room and all of you listening at home from that. Um, as we mentioned before, we'll be talking with the honorable Barbara Lee tomorrow, who is such a firebrand, such an icon. I'm so excited. Yeah. ClapS for B Lee. I'm so excited to talk with the Congresswoman and just get her firsthand perspective on this topic. It's something that's kind of built and underlined and loomed over her entire career and basically her whole life. I mean she was really young when she got involved, um, and met Shirley Chisholm. So I am so inspired by her every day and I'm so excited that we get to talk with her.
INTERVIEW
Lark:
Well thank you so much congresswoman, for joining us. I'm so glad you can make time in your no doubt busy, busy schedule. We're so happy to have you. First up we'll get right into it. You have paved the way for so many women at nearly every step of your career, particularly for Black women, um, while never compromising your positions. And I'm wondering, did this line up with how you envisioned your career to be when you first ran for office? I know you talk a lot about how you were so engaged in kind of, I don't wanna say anti the political establishment, but had some doubts. How does, did you ever think this is where you would be?
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
I had plenty of doubts. I was intentional though about not being involved. Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
Yeah. Yeah.
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
And I had, uh, Congressman Dellums who was amazing. And after you worked for Ron, who was a warrior, who was someone who just was, uh, incredible in terms of integrity and in terms of, uh, clarity on the military budget and domestic priorities. After you work for someone like that, how do you
Lark:
Yeah. How do you do anything else.
Lark:
That's a great way to put it. That's a great way to put it. And um, you know, you mentioned Shirley Chisholm, one of your mentors. I, uh, was lucky to be at the DC premiere and you got to talk to Regina King and that was so cool. The movie's great. Christina, I hope you think Christina Jackson does you justice. I feel like she did.
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
She did a great job. And I've seen her several times since and she tells me that I’ve lived at least seven lives.
Lark:
Yes, I would agree with that as well. I would agree with that as well. Um, and you know, of course Shirley kind of framed a lot of your philosophy and about joining political office and kind of your way of governing. And I'm wondering, did she or maybe even any other Black women kind of warn you of the attacks and the pressures of Black women in office? Or, you know, was it something that we all kind of have to figure out for ourselves? 'cause I feel like it's almost like people say this about like childbirth, right? If we told people a lot of the truth, no one would do it again. You know? Is it one of those things where people were able to give you a heads up and did that shape the way you entered office at all?
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
Well, my mother gave me a heads up and being a Black girl in, in Texas gave me a heads up. And my mother was actually, uh, one of the first 12 students to integrate the University of Texas in El Paso. And she had to struggle. I mean, in Texas, uh, with my grandfather who we lived with, uh, as he aged. She raised three girls. She worked, she was first black woman to work at Fort Bliss, Texas. And same time, uh, integrated the, then it was Texas Western now University of Texas at El Paso. So I just grew up knowing what the challenges are and I mean, it was like when I was in high school, I couldn't be cheerleader 'cause they had a selection committee.
Lark:
Geez. Yeah.
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
And you had to be blonde and blue-eyed to be a cheerleader. And so I went to the NAACP and said, I need help. Can you help me organize? And they did. And we changed the rules and, um, made it such that that selection committee was dismantled. And the student body then could vote on a cheerleader. And guess what? I won. I was the first Black cheerleader at San Fernando High School. So it's been just
Lark:
Really in your blood .
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
Everywhere. All the time. And that's Black women. I always loved to quote Dr. Maya Angelou “And still we rise.”
Lark:
Mm-Hmm.
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
Well, it's not disheartening, it's just reflective of how deep, uh, racism is and how deep sexism is in this country. And so Black women have both. And so what it does, it just makes me more determined to, uh, make sure that I have Black women who I can help mentor and do things with, uh, in a way that they don't have to go through what I've been through in a lot of my legislation. A lot of my policies, actually
Lark:
It is. And we talked about that last night, about the idea that when Black women do run for office or elected to office, that they're just single-minded. You know, that people want to put them in a box and pigeonhole them as you only care about Black women. And that's not the way to think about it. Right. No one has cared about Black women for a long time, so we have to take care of ourselves and protect ourselves.
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
Yeah. But Black women care about everybody and that's our history. And, you know, uh, and just going back to, uh, the senate campaign. Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
Yeah. There's so much that are I don’t know what it is about her I don't like. it's racism. That's what it is.
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
We have to talk about racism in the context of sexism and the context of inequality in the context of, you know, personal and systemic issues.
Lark:
Yeah. Yeah. We definitely do. So as we've talked about before, and our listeners definitely know all of your illustrious career, I will say. Um, and you were always politically active before you ran for office. Um, and I wonder if you can talk about the importance of partnering official and grassroots power in times like these, especially for Black women. Mm-Hmm.
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
Yeah. And I think well and democracy, demands that we have an inside outside. Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
Yeah. We need it all. We need it all. Okay. Well we'll wrap up here. Um, as you reflect back on all that you've done so far, are there any things that stand out to you as really pivotal or important moments for Black women in politics? And what do you think the future holds for Black women in politics?
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
The future I think is very optimistic for Black women in politics because we are here to stay.
Lark:
Yes.
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
They know that we've been, uh, the movers and shakers and making sure that these other people get elected. And so we have to really know our power and, and use our power in a way that we've never done it before. And I see Black women all over the country doing that. And it really makes me excited to, to see that. You know, and, uh, for me, throughout my, uh, life, uh, all these moments stand out. I mean a lot of, I think maybe in this context, 'cause I'm just leaving appropriations committee, uh, project 2025. They're trying to dismantle the Global AIDS initiative that I started. PEPFAR and the Global Fund, and I did this with George Bush. And we've saved 25 million lives. There are those now trying to undermine that effort and trying to destroy what we've done. Now, these were mainly Black people in United States and in Africa. And so for Barbara Lee to work with a white, very conservative president who I voted against, I was the only one who voted against the authorization to go to war to use, and got all kinds of death threats and the whole bit. I was against all of his economic power against every single thing that he did, except we worked together to be able to do this on the continent of Africa, you saved 25 million lives.
Lark:
Wow. Well, yeah. I, people haven't watched your floor speech when you voted against the war. It's powerful, powerful stuff. Well, thank you so much, Congresswoman. Um, and it's an honor just to obviously get to talk to you, but be here while you’re doing your thing.
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
Well it’s great to be here.
Lark:
Thank you.
Congresswoman Barbara Lee:
Yeah, Black women lead now.
Lark:
Yes. Yes they do.
CREDITS
Hearsay is a Wonder Media network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It's hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis and Hilary Woodward. Our producers are Taylor Williamson and Abbey Delk. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer, and Maddy Foley is our editor show Art by Andrea Sumner.
BLOOPER
Lark:
This is usually when the producers say. So you guys talked a lot about Lark being an intern. But let's circle back to this.
Hilary:
Or could you define Hill-tern?
Lark:
A Capitol Hill intern
Hilary:
Poor, poor Taylor.