What happens when reality TV gets too real? Jessica, Lark, and Hilary discuss two instances of how sexual harassment and assault were handled on reality TV, first on Survivor, then on Below Deck: Down Under. Then we talk to our guest Hannah Finnie, an expert on the intersection of employment law and reality TV, about why reality TV stars need workers’ rights too, especially in a genre of entertainment that’s too often discounted as “trash.”
What happens when reality TV gets too real? Jessica, Lark, and Hilary discuss two instances of how sexual harassment and assault were handled on reality TV, first on Survivor, then on Below Deck: Down Under. Then we talk to our guest Hannah Finnie, an expert on the intersection of employment law and reality TV, about why reality TV stars need workers’ rights too, especially in a genre of entertainment that’s too often discounted as “trash.”
If you have experienced sex harassment at work, at school, or when receiving health care, the TIME’S UP Legal Defense Fund may be able to help. For more information visit: https://nwlc.org/times-up-legal-defense-fund-/ .
More information on Kellee Kim’s case and TIME’S UP Legal Defense Fund’s involvement can be found here: https://nwlc.org/surviving-survivor-sexual-harassment-in-the-workplace-includes-reality-tv/
Hilary:
Hi, I am Hilary.
Jessica:
Hi, I'm Jessica.
Lark:
And I'm Lark. We all work together here at the National Women's Law Center. Welcome to Hearsay, where we deep dive into cultural moments that live rent free in our heads and probably yours too. Um, today we are talking about one of our favorite topics, reality tv. I feel like it's a genre of TV that people love to say they hate, but we all know we actually really love it. And I feel like those of us who love it often feel like we have to defend it or like back it up by calling it a guilty pleasure or a trash tv. But I mean, whether you wanna admit it or not, it always needs to be talked about because at the end of the day, it really is more of a reflection of real life than we think or maybe are like willing to admit . Um, but I have no shame. I watch so many shows. I'm constantly watching reality tv. I love it. It gives me life. But I wanna know, what are your guys' favorite reality TV shows?
Jessica:
I'm definitely more of like, uh, like of a romance TV show person versus like a competition reality TV show or just people watching what people are doing. So I had a really weird phase in my life where I was obsessed with Temptation Island.
Lark:
Oh, classic.
Jessica:
Um, just started. Love Is Blind Season five this week
Hilary:
they're up to five?
Jessica
Um, yeah. Mm-Hmm. already, already They're turning out like two a year. Yeah. And that's just in the US. Yeah. Um, the Ultimatum Original and Queer Love. Mm-Hmm. some of the best TV I've ever seen. And then I also watched Flavor of Love for the first time a few months ago.
Lark:
And that is a cultural moment. Everyone should watch that.
Jessica:
It was, and the amount of cultural references and like pictures and gif that I've seen on the internet growing up that I had no idea were from that show until I watched it blew my mind. Mm-Hmm. .
Hilary:
So this won't come as a surprise that either of you, but I like the competition reality shows you Yeah. Competitive. Not, no, no, I'm not competitive. I just enjoy a good game. So I have watched, um, the Amazing Race, Survivor, which is a little bit of a spoiler for a really long time. Um, I love a good, great British bakeoff. See, it doesn't have hot Roast
Jessica:
I do love Great British Bake. Yes. I feel like that is a, it's just
Lark:
Cozy because it's nice. Yeah. You feel good.
Hilary:
It's stressful for, I bake a lot. Oh yeah. And it's actually very stressful for me because, um, I take it all really seriously for them. But, uh, yeah, I like the shows where there are winners and losers, and I can argue about who should have won or lost.
Lark:
I feel like I like 'em all. I mean, I'm a big real Housewives girly. I love everything on TLC, like 90 Day, Sister Wives. I've watched Sister Wives from the beginning. They're on season 18 . He's lost all the wives except one. I feel like those are really good. I'm like a reformed former bachelor nation watcher. I don't need to see 19 year olds like say they're gonna be in love just to become influencers. So yeah. I feel like those are the ones I watch. I mean, I use them a lot as like escapism, but I feel like so much of what we see in those shows is exactly what we do for work and see every day. And so it's not even,
Hilary:
It's not always the escape.
Lark:
No. Yeah. It's like you see all these things that you're like, wow, that's actually bad and not funny. And yeah. I wish I didn't watch that.
Jessica:
Like Watching so Yes. To the dress and seeing the mother-daughter relationships and
Lark:
Oh my God,
Jessica:
Like, oh my gosh. Um, I was just here for the dresses, , and now I wanna call my mom. Right, right. Um, but that's kind of Yeah, definitely. Whether it's like personal experiences or stuff that we see in the news um, for work.
Lark:
Well 'cause it, I mean, yeah, it mirrors everything even though it's like fake. It's not reality, but it does mirror everything that's going on in society and in our world. You know, like, it's exactly what's going on. And that's why I think it's so popular and does so well and people like to watch it, um,
Hilary:
A la the Real World. It's like the, the original, right. Yeah. What happens when people stop being nice and start getting real? I'm dating myself right now
Lark:
Oh my God, Real World. Real was so, I'm surprised they haven't like, brought that back.
Hilary:
The point is it's been on forever. Yeah. Reshaped our media landscape and we watch it all the time for fun to relax to just, it goes down easy. Right? No, no complicated plots to follow, except a lot of times it doesn't. So we today wanted to talk about two specific reality show moments over the last few years that for all of us sort of like hit hard and you know, some of us watched as they originally aired and some kind of more recently. But, um, it's the, you know, like producers and like the networks love to call them water cooler moments. And for us it's like, this isn't gameplay anymore. This is real. Yeah.
Lark:
It's life. Yeah. It's more than that.
Hilary:
So the first one we wanted to talk about was from Survivor. Mm-Hmm. . The season we wanna talk about is 39. I think they're like six seasons past that now. They're like up to 40 something.
Lark:
And that was in like, like 2019, right? The one,
Hilary:
Yeah. So it was the, it was the Fall 2019 one. And so it was called Island of the Idols 'cause they always have those names. And um, it was like a pretty good cast at first, including this wonderful, very strategic player named Kellee Kim. And it took a bit into the season, but Kelly started to say she was having issues with another contestant named Dan. And Dan she said was inappropriately touching her. And like, if you've watched Survivor, right. Like, it's not exactly the same as it was in the beginning, but they're still thrown out on an island. Yeah. And you know, you gotta live, you gotta eat coconuts and rice and you gotta sleep in a shelter together and you're really thrown together. So at first I think it was probably a little confusing for her, like, there's this guy here, but he continued to make her feel uncomfortable. And Survivor still has tribes and all this stuff. And even just like talking about it out loud is so ridiculous. Like
Lark:
, I, that was something I noticed. I didn't, like I told you, I watch, my parents watch like originally like Mm-Hmm. Whatever Season three I am glad they get to wear a few more clothes now. Yeah. I didn't know that had changed. And
Jessica:
I guess that's why they had to make Naked and Afraid
Lark:
I guess that’s why that had to go the other way.
Jessica:
Need more nudity. We got you. We got you. A hundred percent.
Lark:
God Naked and Afraid, that's another one.
Hilary:
So back to Kellee, right.
Jessica
Kellee's great.
Hilary:
Right. She was really uncomfortable with another contestant. So the show kind of broke the fourth wall, which it doesn't always do. And like showed Kellee talking to your producer saying like, I don't know what to do. But within Survivor there, you know, like the thing that happens over and over again is that you don't know if something's part of the game or are these friendships real? Right? Like that's the, the, the like crux of the show. Like how do you like, coexist with people and make them like you enough to keep you around without being a threat. Like, you know, endless psychological, whatever. Mm-Hmm. . But so Kellee didn't know how to handle it, you know, when she was being harassed and it was like pretty textbook harassment. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. , but didn't know what to do because she didn't want it to blow up her game. Mm-Hmm. . And so there was an opportunity where she got to talk to other players when they merged. And so immediately she starts talking to some other contestants, women on the show who had the same experience with the same contestant.
Lark:
Shocker.
Hilary:
Yeah. His name's Dan. But she ends up telling people and they use it against her, and she gets voted out immediately and watching it, I was like, hold up, this is life. Right? Like, this is what we work on. This is what happens when someone
Lark
Every time.
Hilary
and and Kellee even said it herself, she's like, there're always consequences for standing up when she decided she didn't wanna like, say anything or have their producers intervene. She didn't want it to happen. But even talking to other contestants, backfired on her. And I remember coming into work and I was like, does anyone watch Survivor? The word survivor at the National Women's Law Center means something very different, you know? Oh. Everyone's like, you know
Lark:
Talk about double entendre.
Jessica:
Which Survivor?
Hilary:
Yeah. Survivor. Is that a case? Yeah. Um, so Kellee gets voted out later. The contestant Dan is actually finally kicked off the show by producers for, you know, it's like four episodes later. Right. Which translates to like 12 days later. And it's because he ends up touching a producer.
Jessica:
Oh my gosh.
Lark:
So awful.
So like that's the, you know, it takes that much. And in the meantime, Kellee, you know, loses out on a million dollars. Mm-Hmm. , there were real consequences. Um, and there were also consequences, and we should say this too, for the other women on the show who ended up voting her out, they didn't know the degree to which Kellee was feeling uncomfortable. And of course, social media being what it is, like everyone just like went ater them. And so they, you know, they're playing a game. It was within this context and it just, all these blurred lines, right? Like the of what's a reality, what's not, when do you work, when do you not like it? It was shocking. Um,
Lark:
I thought it was shocking to watch, like my jaw dropped, especially like thinking of being in that situation like Kellee and dealing with that. And I felt like she was so calm and like, yeah. Obviously like you said, she's playing the game, right. She has to win and wants to win. But I feel like that was so shocking. You could see all the other women contestants making that same calculus throughout. Yeah. That whole episode and Janet's like explosion for of rage, which was like, so good. But just like, yeah, this is what happens every single time. And it doesn't matter. Like you're always going to get kicked off the island.
Hilary:
They have a discussion right about it. It later after she's been kicked out and first a contestant's like, you know, I have daughters, like every cliche about came out, you know, and then do we believe survivors or not? Do we believe women? Do we like, I couldn't believe the words. Me Too appeared on the show in prime time, you know? Mm-Hmm. . And ultimately, right, the show apologized and ultimately I think Survivor learned some things. The show learned some things, but it wasn't fast. No.
Jessica:
And it was at an expense.
Hilary:
Oh, for sure. for sure.
Lark:
So we wanted to compare that with something that happened even more recently on a show called Below Deck, which is a popular show in the ever expansive Bravo universe. Um, in this specific instance, we're talking about an episode from Below Deck down under that aired in summer of 2023. I have watched Below Deck Mediterranean for a while. It's like my parents' favorite Saturday morning reality show, but I'd never watched Down Under. But essentially Below Deck is like the crew of these chartered yachts. So there's like the crew that makes sure the boat runs and gets docked and stuff like that. And then there's the people that work inside the ship that do everything from folding the charter guest laundry to making the drinks. There's a chef, but a big part of the show is kind of the closeness physically within the bunks and the ship.
Mm-Hmm. . And then there's a huge like, I guess party atmosphere. They have what they call turnover day, which is when one charter leaves and before the next one comes, they usually have a night in a pretty cool destination. Right. You're out on this yacht somewhere cool. And that always ends up with some raucous partying. Right. You've been working nonstop. It's 24/7 service work. Um, and they always get a little, little drunk,
Hilary:
a little rowdy
Lark:
and yeah, a little rowdy. They're like notorious for all hooking up with each other and like, it's crazy, but it's so entertaining to watch. But on this down under episode, there was kind of like a double plot, I would say. There was like the main plot with Margot and Luke. So they go out, Margot is really inebriated, like eyes are not open, can barely walk. And a good friend of Margot comes and is like, Margot, you're going right to bed. Luke had been trying to get at her like all season in this whole episode, and she puts her to bed, like goes out to get something and comes back and Luke is trying to assault Margot. And immediately the producers jump in, which I felt like was so different from Survivor. Right. Like immediately while they're filming, the producers are like, stop Luke, get out. You're not supposed to there
Jessica:
Like banging on the door the door.
Lark:
Yeah. Like physically pulling him out of there. That was like jarring to watch as well. But I felt like it was such a stark difference from the producers and Survivor being like, if you need help like
Hilary:
Yeah. What would you like if you, do you want us to do something?
Lark:
Right? It's like, just do something. And so obviously the friend is super torn up, she goes to the captain and is like, this is is not good. He tried to do this and he was like, okay, he's off first thing in the morning. And so that's what he does. He kicks him off the first thing in the morning. They have a whole meeting.
Jessica
He kicks him off immediately after
Lark:
Oh yeah.
Lark:
Immediately. Yeah.
Jessica:
Um,
Hilary:
That he couldn't even stay on the boat.
Jessica:
And he couldn't even like comprehend what was happening. There's like, you can, we can talk in the morning, be like, you need to go stay in a hotel tonight. Which swift.
Lark:
But then while that's kind of happening, we have the hot tub scene with Laura and Adam and Laura has been trying to come onto Adam this whole time and everyone is like, read the room. Laura. Like, he's not into it. He's like physically moving himself around the hot tub. He's like telling his roommate he's going to bed. She goes into bed with him and is like, get out. And then she starts like defending Luke from the Margot situation and was like rolling her eyes and saying he shouldn't have gotten kicked off. And then, then
Jessica :
she's like crying. Yeah. Because he got kicked off. She's like, we didn't get to say goodbye. And I remember in the room was looking at her like,
Hilary:
Yeah, she could not read the boat.
Lark:
No. . No. She could not read the boat,
Jessica:
Read the Cabinet.
Lark:
And they said, you can go too. You can go with him. So it was nice to see that.
Jessica:
Yeah, I'd never watched Survivor or Below Deck. Yeah. And Survivor already was seeming very intense. And Below Deck was giving like Jersey Shore, like, I don't know
Lark:
Jersey Shore at Sea
Jessica:
So for having these like even intense, even more intense moments was like, oh dang. Like this is, yeah, it's loaded. I grew up in like a, or we all did in the era of like live tweeting. Yeah. Um, so I love live texting. Mm-Hmm. live note taking. And I think that's like the best way to capture the essence. So like the notes that I took had a lot of curse words, lots of caps. Yeah. Like strands of question mark, question mark,
Lark:
Question mark, Question mark.
Jessica:
Yep. exclamation points. Like I was just like, what actually is, and I was watching because I was watching it by myself and I was like, this is insane. Wild. And I think what really, I don't know, gagged me how Laura was just so textbook like almost pick me. Yeah. Like going back to what we were, how we were introing it and talking about like reality TV isn't real. Mm-Hmm. . And it was like to what degree is she really being herself and to what degree is this like just a, like such a character. Right. Because like it was just so everything she said.
Lark:
Right. And that's the character you're gonna pick.
Jessica:
Yeah. From defending Luke to also being a sexual harasser, assailant herself was like insane. And then so it was like, can I get a warning? It's like, no, you're an adult. You signed a contract
Hilary:
She didn't know that. She didn't know she was an adult either. Yeah.
Jessica:
I mean, and that's the, and that's
Hilary:
The thing on these shows, do you, are you uh, contestant? Are you an actor? Are you an employee? Like who are you on that show? And Right. You know, they're hired. Right. But like who are they hired by?
Lark:
Yeah. Well and I feel like Below Deck especially they're, it is a job that they're doing, you know? Mm-Hmm. . And then also they're being contracted or hired by the network as well. They are doing the real job of working a yacht.
Jessica:
. It's not even like other reality TV where like on Jersey Shore, they were working at the Shore Store for like five minutes for like the whole house ma, for a 45 minute episode. And then the rest of the time, time it's like House drama, right. Partying, any sort of reality TV show where they're like working another job. It's like their side quest. Yeah. And like the main quest is the drama
Hilary:
is hooking and making drama.
Jessica:
Versus Below Deck. It's like they were working, it's the drama. It was like we have our meeting to talk about the day. Right. Where we will also be talking about how Luke has been fired. Yeah. And then kind of going also into what you were talking about Hilary with like the producers on Survivor being like, oh yeah. Like I have a sister. Like yeah, I roll and they, the dudes on Below Deck were all like, yeah, he needs to go. Mm-Hmm. like, we need to go. But there was one of them that was like, yeah, like I have sisters, I have a mom. And it's like, okay, you don't need to say, say
Hilary:
That you can't help it, but it
Jessica:
Was also like, Luke sucks. Right. Like he needs to go.
Lark:
Yeah. I think it says like, just think of my sisters. I would hate for her to be around a guy like that
Jessica:
And it's like, how come you can't just be like another person got assaulted? Like you don't need to put yourself in this situation.
Lark:
Quantify It,
Hilary:
They just cannot.
Jessica:
And you also are in this situation, this is one of your colleagues. Right. You can just say like, I feel really like upset about this. Right. Like, I hope she gets better. There are lots of layers to how it was perceived and like how it's in so much of the work that we do.
Lark:
Yeah. And I do feel like the media, I mean I guess I was less aware of the initial media around the Survivor episode, but I know Below Deck, like so many of the crew like posted stuff on Instagram were so supportive. Everyone was like, that's the kind of friend. Right. I want to have the friend that's right there, you know, taking it to the boss and stuff like that. And a lot of, I think mostly women crew members have said like, what we've been saying, this is far too common. It happens all the time. You know, I would hope someone would do that for me, but it shouldn't even happen in the first place.
Hilary:
It struck me that like even in one episode you could see who had authority and who didn't. Yeah. And like, there's like a real clear hierarchy and you know who to go to, who to report. Right? Mm-Hmm. Survivor, if the producer's like looking at you and is like, is should I do anything? You want me to do something? Right. And the contestant doesn't know they don't have power. That's the whole point. Right. And apparently, you know, Survivor kind of covered itself at first to say like, oh, well we pulled every contestant aside and we told them like, reminder, don't harass people. Mm-Hmm. . And they pulled Dan aside and said, reminder, don't harass people. And nobody got it. Half the contestants said they didn't even know that they were talking about Dan. Like they didn't connect it
Lark:
No and even when they talked to him on camera. Mm-Hmm. He's like, yeah, I'm like a comfortable, touchy-feely guy, but like no one, I've worked with women all the time and I've never, bro,
Jessica:
Of course he wouldn't see it that way.
Lark:
Right. And at that point, everyone, every woman on the island had said, yeah, he's made me feel comfortable
Hilary:
At basically everyone except the older woman. Which is like pretty telling too. Pretty telling. They also have footage of Dan grabbing someone's leg and Dan like grabbing someone's arm, Dan touching Kellee's hair and her like running away from him. And in the shot you can see the other and it's like they didn't use any of this at first because they didn't, you know, film it cleanly. Right. But it was all there. They knew.
Lark:
Right. Which I think that goes into like the influence and impact of reality TV that we don't necessarily take in a lot. Like we said, it's a mirror and we said, you know, in some ways it's aspirational or escapism. But if we're watching that and seeing how this is handled and seeing how people are treated because of that, you know, that's gonna have a cultural impact on you. You know? Mm-Hmm. . And it, it's gonna continue. And how we react and do we hold shows accountable? Do we hold networks accountable? Right. Do we hold producers accountable?
Jessica:
and the people in our lives.
Lark:
Right.
Hilary:
Yeah. To me the, it's very like notable that both shows knew that the second these episodes aired in whatever cut of them they made and whatever they chose to show or not, regardless, it was clear what had happened was wrong and that they, they knew that they were culpable in some way that they had to do something about it. And you know, we're managing toward reputation, which is like pretty normal for any employer, any company, any, anything in the world.
Lark:
Obviously we could talk about this all day, but I feel like we need to bring in our good friend and former colleague Hannah Finnie. She is awesome. She's the perfect person for this as a reality TV connoisseur herself. But unlike us, she went to law school and there she studied the treatment of employees and participants on reality TV shows.
Hilary:
Can you believe it? that person exists and we know her
Lark:
And It's so cool. She's like the reality tv. I don't know. That's like, yeah. The only thing that would make me consider more school.
Hilary:
How many reality TV shows has Hannah made you watch a lot that you've never watched before? Yeah. Yeah. A lot.
Lark:
The way she talks about them it's like, yeah, wow maybe this is the best thing ever. So yeah. We've obviously got questions for her. She watched both the episodes as well.
[transition music]
Hilary:
Awesome. Like for me it's like how can we change this? Mm-Hmm. What can be different? Both, you know, sexual harassment at work, but also at work when your workplace is a reality show.
Jessica:
Yeah. When the lines are blurred. Yeah. Yeah. Um, when they shouldn't be. Right. Because you are an employee and you're doing this for money. Yeah. And you should not have to worry about your safety.
Lark:
Well Hannah, we can't wait to chat with you.
INTERVIEW:
Lark:
Hi Hannah.
Hannah:
Hi.
Lark
How are you?
Hannah:
I'm good. How are you?
Lark:
Good. For people that do not have the pleasure of knowing you, tell us about yourself. Tell us about your work.
Hannah:
I am a reality TV fanatic.
Lark:
Amen.
Hannah:
Um, yes. Thank you. Um, and so specifically I have done a weird amount of research into the employment rights of reality TV stars.
Lark:
I would say the right amount.
Hannah:
Yeah. I think I've always been interested in workers' rights. And then I went to law school and focused on employment and labor law and then I was like, how am I gonna make law school more fun? And I said, okay, well I'm just gonna make it all about reality tv.
Lark:
And that's what everyone should do honestly.
Hannah:
And that's why I'm here. And that's the only reason I graduated . Thank you
Lark:
. And we're glad of it. You literally, we are. That's how we were with this Episode too we're like, what do we love to talk about Reality tv. Who would talk about that with us? Hannah. We're talking about the survivor episode and the blowout deck episode that dealt with some truly heinous disaster situations, handled super differently. What were your initial thoughts watching them?
Hannah:
Okay. I had never seen Below Deck before this. So there was like, oh, that's how yachts work. like, okay, I didn't realize that these people had so much off time. Like you're just chilling on the boat. That's great. Let's see. I think that honestly the main thing that struck me right away was like on Below Deck it was clear that in one way the people were considered workers. Mm-Hmm. and on Survivor, there were no ways in which the people were considered workers. Mm-Hmm. To me they are workers. Yeah. Just by like appearing on the show and also therefore on Below Deck they're workers in two senses. But you could in my opinion, really see how one was being treated as like a workplace sexual harassment issue and one was being treated as like a sexual harassment issue. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. That's what stood out.
Lark:
Yeah. I know. 'cause I was gonna bring that up. You call what most people I think call participants reality TV shows, you call them performers.
Hannah:
Yeah. And I thought a lot about this term for a while. I think the reason performer is a good term is because it does show that there is like effort put into it. Mm-Hmm. , right? Like you are performing, like sure anyone can go on reality tv, but not everyone can be good at going on reality TV and like generate interest. Mm-Hmm. and enthusiasm and engagement. And so I think adding the word performer in there does a good job of kind of getting at that. I think the other reason I like that instead of reality TV star is because especially for the class of workers that like I focused Mm-Hmm. my paper on, I'm less concerned about like Kim Kardashian Right. Who is a reality TV star. And I do think that going on the show is work, but she's also an executive producer on her show. Right. And so like she has enough power to kind of overcome all of the terrible working conditions that most of the industry faces. Mm-Hmm. . So I'm more interested in kind of the, I guess less known, less powerful person who goes on a reality show.
Lark:
Yeah. And I think that's such a big power differential to talk about, especially these two instances. But just in reality TV as a whole, like a lot of your work is talked about like the misclassification, there's a reason contracts for reality TV shows are set up the way they are. There's a reason they're not protected in certain ways. Yeah. Like I feel like we saw that go to very different ways , but I don't know what I mean, we can't see what the contracts looked like for both of those. Yeah. But like, I'm wondering if you could talk a little more about how that misclassification is purposeful and opens up for no one to be protected really.
Hannah:
Oh My God. Yeah. Okay. So as part of like the initial research I did on whether or not people who appear on reality shows should be considered employees, which spoiler alert I think they should be. Mm-Hmm. , um, I managed to track down and like talk to, I would say D level reality people. Mm-Hmm. , uh, reality TV performers. And a lot of them were willing to share their contracts with me just like as long as I didn't share them. Mm-Hmm. . And honestly these contracts are insane.
Lark:
I'm sure
Hannah
They literally are like, let me describe torture to you, and then you just sign off that you're okay with.
Lark:
Yeah. And here's a thousand bucks. Good luck.
Hannah:
If that, yeah. If that. Um, so I started like that was kind of where I started and it would literally be like, you are waiving your human right to privacy. And I'm like, are you signing like basically that you're giving up your like UN like Geneva convention, right? Like this is insane
Lark:
To go on the Bachelor. Right.
Hannah:
For like at this point like little to no gain. But anyway, misclassification employers are obviously incentivized to misclassify their workers when if you classify them as independent contractors or as quote unquote participants. Mm-Hmm. , which is like even a level lower, like I just consider that like volunteer. Right. Um, they don't have to pay for your benefits. They don't have to provide all of these things that in the us in our employment and labor law, we restrict to employee only status. Hmm. So like, I think a lot of people think of like all of the like movement we've made with Me Too and like sexual harassment in the workplace, which is amazing, but people don't realize that Title VII sexual harassment protections are only guaranteed if you are an employee and not if you're an independent contractor. Right. And like maybe there's a state law that fixes that and like there are other remedies, but like that's a really glaring issue. And so by misclassifying all of these workers, basically you get to pay them less. You don't have to treat them as well and you can make them kind of do whatever you want and then they have like no recourse. So Yeah. That's
Lark:
Just what you want. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . That's it. Yeah. That's so disheartening. But obviously that's why they're doing it that way.
Hannah:
Yeah well the other thing that I think is nuts is like the reality TV industry is already the genre of television that makes the most money. Mm-Hmm. , if you think about it, like they're not paying the people who, you don't have actors to pay
Lark:
And they're just making so much money
Hannah:
And they pretend they don't have writers. So they're also like not paying writers. And so they also don't have to create sets. Like just the production costs of creating a reality show are much lower and a lot of people are watching them. So the profits are huge, but they're still like, no, we're not gonna pay these people.
Lark
Yeah. I mean you talked about kind of the progress we've made in the movement, hopefully for the better that we've seen. And no matter how incremental do you think the situation specifically with reality TV is getting better? Like I think about the Survivor episode was what, 2019 and the blow deck episode was 2023. I don't know if that stark difference is because of time. Is it because they're in Australia? Is it because like you said, it's a clear workplace situation. Mm-Hmm. , you know, do you think there's hope for it for getting better or based off what you've researched? Probably not.
Hannah:
I think one thing that I am hopeful about and energized bias, like obviously we're in the midst of somewhat of a worker's rights revolution. Mm-Hmm. in the US Mm-Hmm. , we didn't have a great starting point. So we, we started out with not that many rights. So I don't know how high we're gonna get, but I think overall that is exciting. And we saw during the writers and actors strike that people like Bethany Frankel were calling on reality TV stars to unionize. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and so I think as people in general become more comfortable and excited by unions, like it used to be like, oh my God, a union and now like Republican candidates are on the picket line, which like feels nuts to me. Right. So do I think it's getting better? I don't know. I think like with the Below deck episode, I question whether or not the production company would've stepped in.
Mm-Hmm. like they, they prevented the assault. Mm-Hmm. Great. Would they have gotten rid of him? I don't know. Yeah. Like I think I kind of attribute how to the extent that it was handled well, like I kind of am like the captain was the one who I think handled that pretty well. And then the other interesting thing about it being in Australia is like when I was doing this research that is the one place in the entire world where I found a case, um, stating that people who go on reality shows are employees.
Lark:
Wow.
Hannah:
Yeah. It was from a worker's comp perspective. Mm-Hmm. because that's another thing in the US if you're not an employee, you don't get workers' comp, you don't get unemployment insurance, you don't get all of these fun things. Oh great. I know. Um, but in Australia there was a recent case that was like, actually yeah, this woman is entitled to workers' comp because she's an employee and she suffered from like bullying and harassment on her reality show. So I am like, maybe things are slightly better in Australia.
Lark:
Yeah. Well that's what we were wondering 'cause we obviously don't know if any like legal procedure ensued from Below Deck. We obviously know what happened with Kellee on Survivor because Times Up Legal Defense Fund helped her find an attorney and provide her with media assistance and everything. And like CBS and survivor producers promised to make changes Mm-Hmm. to prevent harassment in the future. And situations like that, we, I guess all we can do is take them at their word. But that's so interesting about the law because Yeah, that's what we kind of didn't know. That's been my question the whole time. Like is it because it's in Australia, but if it's already,
Hannah:
I dont know. I think the other thing that's so annoying about the US on this issue is all of these contracts are designed for the cases to never get to the court. Right. Right. Like forced arbitration agreements. Mm-Hmm. mean that like when these reality people go on the shows in their contracts, they sign away their right to be able to go to court and instead they are forced to resolve all of their issues through a mediation that is usually like stacked in favor of the production company. Right. They've usually signed an NDA Mm-Hmm. they just in pretty much every way, like there's no way that this case is gonna get to the court system. Right. And that means that we don't get the benefit of publicity. Mm-Hmm. because a lot of arbitration agreements are also secret. Yeah. And so we don't actually get to see what happens.
Lark:
Yeah. That's so…I know you like researched a lot of different people that try to take cases further, you know, escalate cases and I know the love is blind.
Hannah:
Oh my God. Yeah.
Lark:
Is it's a lawsuit, right? Yeah. Or yeah. Of a contestant on this most recent season is alleging assault. Um, and I know there was some other, like I remember, I think it was on Big Brother, I had a couple people that were mutual friends with a contestant that was getting pretty bullied and seemingly for racist reasons. And I remember her friends like all on Twitter. Mm-Hmm. totally supporting her really doing that because they probably can. And I don't know, I would love to know like what if she was able to say anything to them and I don't know if she escalated anything at all, but they were just watching as spectators and watching their friend be treated like on tv and so she, they, it was like tons of tweets about it and I don't know, I've never watched Big Brother. I don't know what.
Hannah:
Okay. The other fascinating thing about that, because they have the live feeds. Yeah. You can watch 24/7. That almost gives a sliver more power back to the reality people because then their friends can watch and see what's happening. Right. Versus again in these like ridiculously lopsided contracts that you sign for most other shows, you explicitly sign away the right to an accurate portrayal of yourself.
Lark:
That's so wild.
Hannah:
Right. So like that might have not have ever come to the surface if the production company had the entire ability to shape the narrative. It almost makes sense to me that that happened on Big Brother specifically.
Lark:
That's so interesting because you see people, which I think kind of gets into something we talk about a lot of, it's not trash tv, like reality, it is entertainment,
Hannah:
It's recycling tv, . It's ,
Lark:
It's TV for good and it's a mirror whether we like it or not, of every of our society of what we do, of what we like, of what's going on. Yeah. And I think as you got into roles, you know, and stars and performers of like, that's always people's defense is that, I was portrayed incorrectly. You know, I, the editing was bad, but it's interesting if that was part of most contracts it seems or not, but yeah that's just so crazy.
Hannah:
I think the other component that goes into this is a lot of times these shows are looking for people who are kind of like in this yellow zone. Mm-Hmm. , this is what a person I interviewed for the project who has been on a show described to me. But basically they're looking for people who pass their like general psychological screening test. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . But also are not like a total green flag. Like they don't want you to be a hundred percent mentally healthy.
Lark:
Right. Who wants to watch that?
Hannah:
Then you wouldn’t be good tv. Exactly. And so then it's like they're finding these people where they can kind of get away with putting them on TV and then portraying them however they want and it just seems so exploitative.
Lark:
Yeah. Yeah. Well we've talked too about how it's so exploitative to everyone that's on a reality TV show, but it's almost always women, the shows that are mostly black women or women of color like, and the things people say about them and kind of the trap you get into of like, like real housewives, you, a lot of them, their relationships end and the breadwinners not there and they have to stay on these shows. Yeah. And keep shelling their like jewelry companies. Keep like having these like absurd plot points.
Hannah:
Oh my God.
Lark
To, to stay in their job. To stay employed. Yeah. And it's so when you think about it that way, it's sad.
Hannah:
I mean this is not a new idea, but like we would not be letting this happen if this were not a genre that is heavily watched by women and stars. Not only women, specifically black women are kind of the backbone of the industry. Yeah. And then also have like specifically complex women characters. Right. Like this just wouldn't be happening if it were a different genre. And so I think that is just so much of the problem and it pains me so much when people dismiss it as like trash TV. One, if you care about labor and workers' rights, like you should care about every worker. Exactly. It shouldn't matter if it's a part of a TV show that you don't like. Right. Like, okay, I don't really like Family Feud, I still think Steve Harvey should get paid.
Lark :
Right. I mean yeah, we've talked about reality TV participants being employees, but I feel like reading your work was like, yeah, obviously it's nonstop.
Hannah:
The thing that was really nuts to me about doing this research is that it's actually not even a really complicated question. Mm-Hmm. , when I looked at the two most prevalent tests for what determines if you're an employee or an independent contractor, under both of them reality TV workers are like pretty clearly employees. So I think it that just speaks even more to the fact of that we've devalued this industry because of who's in it and who watches it. Mm-Hmm. , I think if you compare it to sports, which obviously the demographics of who watched that is a little bit different. It's more male dominated. Um, women's sports have not gotten the like coverage that they deserve. Mm-Hmm. . Um, I think if you compare it to sports, like no one would say these athletes shouldn't get paid. No. They're just, this is an opportunity for them to go hit a ball on a field.
Right. Like that it just wouldn't fly. And the fact that it does fly in reality TV is so gendered and misogynistic to me. Yes. So gendered. Yeah. The other thing I think is like, it's also very representative of how an employment law, like we're always so slow to make things better for workers. Mm-Hmm. . So right now, if you think about it, the fact that these workers are all being misclassified, who does that benefit? The employer. Right. The production company. Right. Like they're the ones who are making even more money. And so obviously it's getting, it's slow to make change and I think that we just need to fix employment law so that it's not always the worker who has to kind of wait like 30 years Yeah. For their industry to now be recognized as work. Mm-Hmm. , um, in order to get their their due. Yeah.
Lark:
Yeah. Yeah. And I guess speaking on that, you know, we talked a little bit about specifically Kellee's case, but did anyone you talked to like have other kind of forces of action or routes that they could take with all these barriers of the NDAs, the forced arbitration? Were there people that were able to kind of break through and get some sense or not really?
Hannah:
No. I wish I had a better answer, although I will. Like, what was interesting to me is one of the first questions I asked everyone I talked to was like, did you think of when you were going on the show as work? Mm-Hmm. . Like how did you think about it? And except for one person, they all said no. Mm. And I think that just goes to like how heavily ingrained this is in our society, that this isn't work. That this could not be work. It has to just be like an opportunity, a fun thing, a trivial thing because it's like a feminized thing. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and so that was really interesting to me. None of them had really pursued any like, avenues for change. But I will say one thing that was really interesting in the Survivor episodes where there were multiple times where people mentioned, well how would you think about this if you were an employee and this was your employer? Right? Like Mm-Hmm. there were like grasping. They're so close.
Lark:
They're so close. You're right. You're so close. So just say it. It's Right there
Hannah:
There're one slip away. And it was just really sad because Kellee was such a fantastic player. Like she is everything that I think the current Survivor fan base wants. Mm-Hmm. . Like, she's so strategic. She's so smart. She had just pulled off like a really cool move with a hidden immunity idol like the episode before. And then not only was she brought down by this, like she went head to head with Dan and so then of course she gets knocked out, but also Janet. Mm-Hmm. who was this like beautiful woman who everyone loved.
Lark:
I loved Janet.
Hannah:
Yeah. Tried to do the right thing and then was almost knocked out because of it. Right. The only reason she stayed in that week was because she had an an idol Mm-Hmm. that she played. And so her game was destroyed by it too. And then we also saw Jamal Mm-Hmm. who in the episode before had clearly like, he's clearly thought about these issues. Would I say that I agreed with everything he said in the episode before on like sexism and sexual assault, right? No, but on this episode, like he really spoke up and I thought he called out the other men really, really well. Mm-Hmm. and really effectively and he was sent home. So it's like, okay, who do we have left? Right? We have Dan and the people who supported Dan. Right. That's the cost of speaking up.
Lark:
and that's just, that's it. Right? That's just sums it right up. That's literally,
Hannah:
It's so sad.
Lark:
Thanks so much Hannah. Any final reality TV parting thoughts?
Hannah:
I just think like we should care about everyone who is a worker and is contributing in that way. And I think that we're really doing a disservice to the people who go on shows, but I also want people to remember that the way that we treat the people who go on reality shows also spreads, right? Mm-Hmm. like, um, there have been a lot of studies about how if you treat one class of workers better then it lifts the playing field for everyone, right? Mm-Hmm. , right? Like that's a common kind of thread in union research especially, right? Like if it's a higher union density area, more people who are even not union in the same area are gonna have higher wages because of it. And so I think once again, I don't care if you don't care about reality tv that is allowed, but you have to care about the people who go on reality tv and work. And even if you don't care at all, even about them, then at least think about the fact that their conditions affect a lot of other people. Right. And please care about something that I just named.
Lark:
Yeah. Just be nice. Just be nice people. Pay be nice, pay people. Reality TVs work. Well, we'll see you soon, I'm sure. Okay. Thanks . Thanks so much Hannah. This was so much fun.
Hannah:
It was. Thanks for letting us turn our text thread into a podcast chat.
Lark:
It's my duty on this earth to do that.
Hannah:
Absolutely. Public service.
Lark:
Thank you so much for listening to our episode today. We know we discussed some heavy topics, so we hope you can take care if you want more information on the Time's Up Legal Defense Fund on Kellee's case, um, and a lot of other stuff we mentioned today. It's all gonna be in the show notes. Check it out and we'll talk to you soon.
CREDITS
Hearsay is a Wonder Media Network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis, and Hilary Woodward. Our producers are Taylor Williamson and Autumn Harris. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and Maddy Foley is our editor. Production assistance by Luci Jones and show art by Andrea Sumner.
[Blooper]
Hilary:
We didn't even get into the singing and the dancing.
Lark:
My first, my first act of like civic engagement voting for Kelly Clarkson 8,000 times
Hilary:
. Same, same actually. I mean, I had voted, I guess
Lark:
I was on that phone
Hilary:
Wait like you couldn't vote in like an election, but you could vote for Kelly?
Lark:
No, I'm not gonna tell you how old I was. Keep it to myself
Hilary:
I mean, I both voted for Kelly and,
Lark:
Uh, I mean Kelly for prez obviously. Country under Kelly Clarkson would be great
Jessica:
Would thrive.