#FreeBritney! Britney Spears has been a lightning rod since the moment she appeared on MTV. We discuss the ways in which she’s been a model of how it’s impossible to be a woman in the public eye, at every age, and how her conservatorship shed a light on the way the legal system can be weaponized, especially against people with disabilities. And then, NWLC lawyer and disability justice advocate Ma'ayan Anafi joins us to make the connection between Britney Spears and the larger fight against forced sterilization and conservatorships.
#FreeBritney! Britney Spears has been a lightning rod since the moment she appeared on MTV. We discuss the ways in which she’s been a model of how it’s impossible to be a woman in the public eye, at every age, and how her conservatorship shed a light on the way the legal system can be weaponized, especially against people with disabilities. And then, NWLC lawyer and disability justice advocate Ma'ayan Anafi joins us to make the connection between Britney Spears and the larger fight against forced sterilization and conservatorships.
Ma’ayan’s report, Forced Sterilization of Disabled People in the United States can be found here: https://nwlc.org/resource/forced-sterilization-of-disabled-people-in-the-united-states/
Jessica:
Hi, I'm Jessica.
Hilary:
I'm Hilary.
Lark:
And I'm Lark. And we all work together at the National Women's Law Center. Welcome to Hearsay, where we deep dive into the cultural moments that live rent free in our heads and probably yours too. And today it's Britney, bitch. We are talking about Miss Britney Jean Spears. I feel like, again, this is an episode. I could have talked for days and days and days about, we're specifically talking about her conservatorship, the state of Conservatorships in our country, and what, where we're at, where we're going, what her impact has been in that space. But I feel like first we have to get to where we were first introduced to the icon that is Britney Spears.
Hilary:
To the Legend.
Lark:
To the legend herself. I mean, I was pretty young. I think when she debuted, when Hit Me Baby One More Time came out. I remember like, I couldn't have the, the cd, but my aunt had the CD and I would go to her house and play it on her like 12 CD boombox. Um, I specifically remember asking for the, you Drive Me Crazy Barbie that had like the green lame crop top and dance pants. I did get it and I'm sure it's still in my parents' basement somewhere. Um, I had like, did, did you guys remember Hit Clips? I don't think you had hit clips. What? Hit Hit Clips Hit it Coming at your
CLIP:
Right between the ears of Hit Clips music to get to groove –
Lark:
They were like a precursor to MP3 players. They were so cool. They were these little key chains. And you plugged in what kind of looks like an SD card and it would play just like 90 seconds.
CLIP:
Monster Sound, oops I did it again
Lark:
And so they had
Hilary:
90 seconds?
Jessica:
That's crazy. Like it's Giving Tooth Tunes.
Lark:
Yes, yes. That's literally what it was. It was like, before we got iPods, um, before we got MB three players, my hit clips, I'm still mad I don't have those still, but I had tons of Britney hit clips. Um, I just, I've always been a fan. My mom has always been a fan. My mom is followed by her on Twitter.
Hilary:
Wait, what?
Lark:
Yeah. Which is so weird because
Jessica:
How did that happen?
Lark:
My mother, the influencer that she is, was one of the like first people on Twitter. Like her work was like, you need to be on this for work. And she was like, don't think so, but sure. And that was when like, you know, there was like a couple thousand people on Twitter and everyone followed each other. And the official Britney Spears account still to this day follows my mother. Um, and
Jessica:
you were destined
Hilary:
Your mother also an icon
Lark:
Also an icon. And I'll never let her live that down. But yeah, I feel like I've been lifelong. I dunno about you guys.
Hilary:
So I, you know, little older than Britney. When she debuted, um, you know, I was still in like still sort of an MTV watcher. I was coming home from college. I was in the later years of college. And, um, I had a summertime job at an adhesives company, which is another funny story for another day in the accounting department. It was a really big special, I mean, it was basically The Office. I like worked in the office . I'm not, I'm not, no part of that is an exaggeration, . But, um, you know, it was a summer job and I was like in my hippie clothes and everyone else was like, it just, none of it worked out. But I remember driving to lunch and the song came on and it was like on the one my brain was split in that moment of like one hand, this is catchy as hell.
Lark:
A bop
Jessica:
banger.
Hilary: Yeah, exactly. On the other hand, this poor child, look what they're doing to her. Right? Like what? She's in this like school girl outfit. Mm-Hmm. and like the Pink Puffs in her hair. Mm-Hmm. and the whole thing. And I was like, this isn't okay. Like this, this is a little girl and they're making her sexy, but then having her look like a kid. Right. And like, why is no one upset about this? Won't someone save Britney? What I've discovered recently is that I'm only four years older than Britney Spears. And like this, like paternalistic, like wanting to protect her being right. Like wasn't any better maybe than, you know, the, well, than the exploitation on, on the front end of, of the start of her career. But, um, yeah, it's like, so I think my entire relationship since then, you know, Britney shaves her head, Britney, Justin Timberlake, Britney, everything was like, won't someone save Britney? Mm-Hmm. Won't someone protect Britney? I've just like been worried about her my whole life as if she's so much younger than me. But she's Not.
Jessica:
But like, you probably have seen people you've grown up with or like, I don't know, I don't wanna make an assumption, but it's like, even those few years, like, I mean my cousins are like four years younger than me, and if I saw something like that or just anything, I'm overprotective, but I'm like, I was just your age
Hilary:
Well, the difference between college and high school too, it like, I thought I was so old and now I realize like, you know, I mean her kids are older than my kids. Like it's
Lark:
Wow. That's crazy to think about.
Hilary:
Yeah. We both have boys though. Yeah. Just the same. Same. Me and Britney Jean ,
Jessica:
you've been linked forever. Both of y'all y of y'all have been linked for life forever.
Lark:
We have personal connections.
Jessica
Mine wasn't as, my link was not as, I don't know, private present. I feel like , um, I like, I kind of always knew of her. My mom was a like big like nineties, two thousands radio person in addition to all the music. Yeah. Um, all the other music that she listened to. And I was very online. Mm-Hmm. in like my late like elementary school through middle school years. So I was very familiar with Leave Britney alone. Mm-Hmm. .
CLIP:
And how fucking dare anyone out there make fun of Britney? After all she's been through, leave Britney alone
Jessica:
And the Britney Britney episode of Glee Oh, was amazing.
Lark:
Changed the game.
Jessica:
It it is a pivotal moment in my life. Yeah. Like the, every, I think every, because I was probably one of their, they had to blown a bag on that episode Yeah. With like the costumes and I Oh, their episodes. The stars too. Yeah. The fact that she was in the episode Yes. Is unbelievable. I was gooped. I was like, yeah. 'cause I, I think I was still grasping like celebrity. Right? I'm like, is she, does she know she's doing this? Does she know she's here?
Lark:
And that's Britney, she's everywhere. And Jessica, I know you, we were at a work conference over the summer and we were like getting into our Britney lore and we were at karaoke and it was like truly the millennial Gen Z divide. There was like, what, six of us on the team, I think. Mm-Hmm. And I think we were like three millennial. Three Gen Z. And we were like, well we should sing Britney. Like what song should we sing? And someone got up and sang Lucky, I believe. Right. And
Jessica:
I had no idea what song it was.
Lark:
Yeah. You and every other Gen Z person on the team. And me and the other millennials were like, what? Like, know your history, you have to watch Lucky. And then like two seconds later I was like, well if you listen to Lucky and watch that music video now, like yeah. Post free Britney, you will be like, what the hell did you guys not know? Like what was so shocking about every like this she's telling it for us 20 years ago.
Hilary:
That was like her second album, right? Yeah. Or something like right away. I don't know right away you wrote that song for her, but they said, here's your life, Britney.
Lark:
Yep.
Hilary:
It's sad.
Lark:
Yeah. Like you kind of said Hillary, we knew it was sad at the time. Right. Watching it felt sad. You knew from the debut It was sad. It
Hilary:
It felt exploitative. Yeah. At a minimum. And you felt like she was being used out the gate. Mm-Hmm. because she was It's a machine, right? Yeah. Like she came outta Mickey Mouse Club. Mm-Hmm. . And the same do, do you remember like making the bands like they would like turn shows and
Lark:
Oh, making the band
Hilary:
That creepy dude
Lark:
Lou Pearlman.
Hilary:
Yeah. Wow you had his name right there. Yeah. I, right. Like we knew it was a machine even while we were consuming it. Mm-Hmm. from the start that this was like, she was produced for, for a very specific purpose to make a lot of people money.
Jessica:
Kind of my generation's version of that in my head would be like Demi Lovato, Miley Cyrus. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. And like Selena Gomez. 'cause they were all on Barney. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. I think, I don't know if Miley was, but I know Selena and Demi were Yeah. On Barney together. I remember reading like the teen magazines about like how they grew up together and dah, dah, dah. I think Selena, um, has had a quote unquote more like normal life, I guess since like being a child star. But like Demi, they have been through a lot. Yeah. And as has Miley too. And I think Miley's kind of figuring out what she wants for her life. Mm-Hmm. But we have clearly seen like, I don't know why it's seemingly like we are recreate, trying to recreate the same kind of virality, the same kind of stardom over and over again starting with Michael Jackson. Mm-Hmm. going to Britney Spears going to like, look at this amazing child. Right. We're all just still grooving and dancing. Yeah. And it's like,
Hilary:
Well, and ruining their lives
Jessica:
Right. And ruining their lives. Right. It's like the sacrifice of one person for the enjoyment of millions Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
all the people around her. Like that's what I kept thinking. And when I read her memoir was like, she's doing a Vegas residency, she's on. Right. Was it X factor? America, America's got talent. She's on How I met your mother. She's on Glee, she's on. And no one in all of these times. Everyone, everyone was complicit with it. Everyone just said, oh, yep, that's fine. That's what you're supposed to do.
Hilary:
She's there to make us money.
Lark:
Right. Right. And that's what I'm, we're we'll get into this later, but we will be talking to Ma’ayan Anafi, our esteemed colleague, um, who wrote a fabulous, fabulous report about, um, conservative ships and forced sterilization in the United States, which I think I personally did not know was like still a legal thing in so many states. Um, but they have done a lot of important work on it. And I am really interested to hear their take on the policing of your actions in your life. You know, like
Hilary:
I think it's very specific to women too. Yeah. True. That like, we want them as girls. Mm-Hmm. . And we want them to be a certain way. And I really feel like when everyone turned on Britney was when obviously like she breaks up, she and Justin Timberlake break up, but also then she has kids Mm-Hmm. and that and suddenly she's like, not the ingenue anymore. Mm-Hmm. She's not, she's like broken. Mm-Hmm. And everyone was obsessed with her virginity. I remember that too. It's so gross. It was so gross. Right. And like, like the
Lark:
Clips of like Diane Sawyer like drilling into this teenage girl. It's horrific.
Hilary:
Right. So first she's like a bad girl. Mm-Hmm. . And then she's a bad mom. Mm-Hmm. They say she's not fit like for her kids. And then, you know, like late now, she's like an icky mom because she's like showing her body and proud of herself. They, there was never a way Britney Spears was ever gonna win. She was, she was never going, there was like no right way for her to be in the world. And, and like, you know, we can get into this a little bit. Um, having just like, I went through her book Mm-Hmm. in preparation for this. And it is like, it's what was hardest for me reading it is how much she, I don't think realized, you know, 'cause it was, it was her life. Right. But she didn't realize what had been taken from her until it was very literally taken from her when the conservatorship started, her father started it and literally took her from her kids and everything she did there was to get them back. Mm-Hmm. it's like heartbreaking. And even, but even now she says in there it was like it was 13 years to, to get my family back, to get to be free. Like in that time period that's, that's like a third of her life imprisoned because, because she, you know, had the audacity to try to be a person. It's like,
Lark:
It's so sick. Yeah. And I just, I know the whole, I mean, there's a reason I feel like that part stuck out in the media from her memoir. I feel like it's one of like the most talked about parts is her having an IUD and not being able to have it removed when she wants to have more children. And that I feel like, resonated with people a lot because that was a very concrete way for people
Jessica;
To see the control.
Lark:
To see, To see, wow. Yeah. Something as simple as me going to the doctor or making this choice. And, but I still don't think people are connecting that to like, other ways we have coercive control in the country on like reproductive health.
Jessica:
It's like as us like, and when you think about like, when you're like a kid or even as like a young adult, like if you have relationships with your family and you're like, ugh. Like I, like, I don't know what choice to make. You kind of still have an influence in like what you want to do. Right. But it's literally like a she had no agency. No. And it's like, and it's not, she's not the only person in the world in the country that has been in that situation. And we, there could be people that we know and talk to.
Lark:
Yeah. Well, and I like, yeah. Before Britney Spears' whole story came out, I don't, I didn't even know Conservatorships existed. I didn't know that was a thing that could happen to you or be put upon you or that you could put on someone.
Hilary:
I feel like I still don't understand Conservatorships. And I'm really excited to hear your conversation with Ma’ayan. Mm-Hmm. So I can learn more. I I've read Ma’ayan’s forced sterilization report that they wrote and it's amazing. But there's, there's so much beyond that. And Britney is a small, you know, is a well-resourced person. Mm-Hmm. um, who was so harmed by this that I I imagine those without resources, like it goes much further.
Lark:
Yeah. I know. I mean, Britney's freed, but she won't really ever be free because she's been so messed up by this whole situation.
Hilary:
I don't know how you trust anything again. No, no. You know, after your family calls the cops on you. Right. And and after your children are taken away, like the trauma that has been inflicted on her Mm-Hmm. all because she grew up. Right. Like they became a person, right. Yeah. Like, became an adult and they couldn't control her anymore. Like it's so depressing.
Lark:
It's so awful.
Hilary:
I mean, we could do a little like who's the worst person and Britney Spears life thing,
Lark:
her father, Jamie Spears. Okay. Evil, evil, evil man. Yeah. There was an interesting, this is a total tangent, um, but an interesting article, I think it was in New York magazine about Jamie, her father's mother, and essentially Jamie, the men in Jamie's family have done this to the women in their lives for generations.
Jessica:
Oh my gosh.
Lark:
Like there is a, there's a, at least I think a three generation history of men and his family, um, like institutionalizing the women they were involved with or their mothers and stuff like that. So
Hilary:
It's like trauma upon trauma. It is. And this is what you get. And when it's unhealed and untouched and then you throw in like corruption, money, power. Mm-Hmm. . And like, you know, they, Britney and her book talk so much about the, like, I wanted to sing and I wanted to perform Mm-Hmm. and like the costs of that. Like I, I don't think she sees them even to the degree that, and, and that again is so sad to me. Right. Like, I, I didn't, I ju I read it, I don't know if Michelle Williams somehow makes it like feel cheerier. I doubt it in the, the audio version. Mm-Hmm. . But it is, um, it is, it is, uh, heartbreaking.
Lark:
Heartbreaking.
Hilary:
And to watch someone who has given so much to so many people, but all she ever wanted to do is give things to people.
Lark:
And still like that was that her whole life. She says that, that as a kid she's still like that. And I think that made me the most angry, I guess fired up about that even after all of this, I can,
Jessica:
she's still not completely like jaded.
Lark:
Right. Which I think it would be hard 'cause it's, it's understanding and accepting that every single person you've ever encountered since you were 16, has been complicit in imprisoning you taking away your rights and being in control of you. Mm-Hmm. And that I think obviously would be a very hard pill to swallow. And so I think Right. She probably only has capacity to be angry at certain people for a certain amount of time, but to me it's like every single person that, every driver of the car, you know, every wardrobe person, every guest host and everything else of all these shows she was on, they're all complicit.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Hilary:
Yeah, Cue Lucky.
Lark:
I'm so excited to talk with Ma'ayan Anafi, who is a senior counsel here at NWLC, an incredible disability justice advocate and proud member of the disability community. I'm so excited to talk with them about their work, about, um, the impact their work has had and just, I have a lot of questions for them. So how are you doing today?
Ma’ayan:
I'm doing great. How are you?
Lark:
I'm doing good, thanks. Um, I guess we'll just jump right on in. Um, we'll get a little bit deeper into one of my favorite reports we have ever done at the Law Center, which is your report, um, in a little bit. But I wanna know a little bit more about what brought you to this body of work and kind of to this moment right now.
Ma’ayan:
So in terms of the forced sterilization laws, um, I knew that there were laws out there that explicitly allow the forest sterilization of disabled people, but I didn't know how widespread they were. I knew they existed, but it felt really troubling that no one was talking about it. Like the story that we're told about forest sterilization, if we're told the story at all, is that it's something that was confined to this dark period in history. And, you know, there was certainly state sanctioned for sterilization on a massive scale, um, during the 20th century and that disproportionately impacted women of color, disabled women, poor women.
Ma’ayan:
But the reality is also that state laws explicitly allowing the forest sterilization of disabled people exist right now today, not just in a handful of states, but in the majority of them. So in our study, in the report that you mentioned, we found that 31 states and DC have these laws in place right now. And these laws aren't just relics from history. These aren't laws that were passed a hundred years ago. Some laws were actually passed as recently as 2019. So the goal of the report was really to bring these laws to light and to try to change the way that we talk about forced sterilization.
Lark:
Those are wild numbers. That is just so startling and staggering to hear. Like you said, I think a lot of people think of that as something in the past. But it's actively happening right now. And I think for a lot of us, you know, what brought our consciousness to this conversation about conservatorships, guardianships, forced sterilization and other forms of really just revoked bodily autonomy, um, was Britney Spears being kind of pretty public with her case. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit, about that connection. Right. You, I know your report talks a lot about what is considered a conservatorship in some states, what is considered guardianship, how forced sterilization is not necessarily tied but connected and kind of all these words and concepts that we've been unfortunately, um, introduced to recently.
Ma’ayan:
Yeah. I mean a lot of people were really shocked to learn about guardianship or conservatorship when, when Britney Spears's experience came to light. But it's actually a lot more common than people realize. So just to zoom out a little bit, um, guardianship is a system where a judge appoints someone to make decisions on your behalf. And different states have different terminology. California calls it conservatorship, but guardianship is sort of a more common term across various states. So I'll mostly use that. And one estimate from a few years back is that's something like 1.3 million people are under guardianship or have active guardianship cases and that is almost certainly an under count. Um, this is a system that is massively overused and abused. Many people are funneled into guardianship as just sort of a matter of course, just based on the assumption that they can't make their own decisions in their life while when in reality there are a lot of alternatives to guardianship that preserve people's autonomy and preserve their basic rights.
Ma’ayan:
And once you're under guardianship, it's really hard to get out of it. So it took Britney Spears something like what, like 13 years to get out of guardianship. And if Britney Spears who is white and wealthy and famous wasn't able to claim control over her rights for so long, that just gives us a hint of what people who don't have those privileges might have to go through. And guardians are often given, um, sweeping powers over people's lives. So people might lose many of their most basic rights when they're placed under guardianship. And that sometimes can include things like, um, the right to get married and to vote and see their children to where they live and who they can associate with and how to spend their money. And they can lose their rights to make decisions about, um, what healthcare they get. And that can include reproductive care like birth control and abortion. And it can include permanent sterilization. So the forced sterilization laws, um, uh, that, that I talked about earlier. Um, they don't only affect people under guardianship. So in many states, disabled people who aren't under guardianship can be forced to be sterilized as well. But people who are under guardianship are under uh, or at risk of being under guardianship are, are likely disproportionately impacted by these laws. So there's a lot of overlap and overall hauling the guardianship guardianship system has to be a part of the strategy for tackling these forced sterilization laws as well.
Lark:
Yeah, I mean that's so interesting. I I like that you pointed out how it kind of snowballs and affects so many parts of your life and you know, bringing up the fact that Britney Spears is one of the most famous and identifiable people probably on the globe, and she had such a hard time, I read her memoir that came out in 2023. And it's interesting in that too, she, you know, obviously is very honest and open with the harm that has been put upon her. Um, but I think coming into that book, after reading your work, it doesn't feel like she's quite there on being an advocate for overhauling the system as a whole. Right. She takes this point of view of here I am, like you said, a quote unquote normal white, straight, really rich woman. Um, and they did this to me and I was doing all these seemingly visually functional normal things and that's really just a dangerous line. Right. That's a dangerous way of thinking. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about some of the misconceptions and um, really kind of harmful ways of thinking when we talk about this, of who we deem as a society allowed to be victimized and coerced in this way.
Ma’ayan:
Right, absolutely. I think that there's this idea that there are some disabled people, um, or people with certain types of disabilities that can't make their own decisions or shouldn't be making their own decisions. And so guardians needs to step in for their own good. Like there's this, this widespread idea that guardianship is and how this benevolent system that's there to protect disabled people from themselves. But as disabled people, you know, people across all types of disabilities, we can make our own decisions even if we need particular supports to do that. Um, we have every right to make our own decisions and even if, if others don't think the decision that we're making is the right one. And a system that forces people under guardianship takes away that dignity to have a say over your life and your body and your future. And that system, as I mentioned, needs massive overhaul.
Ma’ayan:
But a lot of supporters of Britney Spears have sort of stopped short of saying that, of, of questioning the guardianship system as a whole. So some have suggested, um, that, you know, some people should be under guardianship and like people with certain types of disabilities or certain types of, of support needs, but Britney Spears is not like those people. You know, guardianship is fine as a system, but just not for her. And the reality is that everyone deserves the right to make their own decisions. And there's a lot of reasons why people get placed under guardianship, but no matter the reason or the specific disability or the specific support needs that someone has, they deserve to have dignity and self-determination. And there are so many alternatives to guardianship that provide people with what they need to do that without losing their basic rights.
Lark:
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. I feel like every time I hear you talk I'm like, wow, one, I learned something, one, I feel so fired up and like ready to take to the streets. But I mean, this is your work, right? This is what you've spent your, a lot of your career doing. And I'm wondering kind of what your personal slash professional thoughts were when all of this was kind of coming to light with Britney Spears and seeing people suddenly pretend to be armchair, you know, conservatorship experts on Twitter and, you know, making demands and and showing a lot of support for her, but in a way that um, maybe it wasn't always so helpful. So what, you know, what was going through your head when we've seen this kind of slow roll throughout the past couple, decade and a half?
Ma’ayan:
Well, I think it was a really watershed moment. Um, in many ways. Like I think it was really eyeopening, um, for a lot of people because so many people didn't realize how common guardianship was. And what was unusual about Britney’s situation wasn't that she was under guardianship, but it was that she had that platform to share her story. And there was public outcry and news coverage about guardianship, uh, and her guardianship in particular. Um, and it was still hard for her to share her stories. It took years, but that's still far more opportunity than most people under guardianship have. Um, most people who are under guardianship face so many barriers to sharing their stories and in many cases they're actively isolated and prevented from doing that. And that really opens up the door to even greater abuse of their rights. So Britney’s case was one of those like rare moments where someone who is currently under guardianship was able to speak out and get public attention and ultimately get out of guardianship.
Ma’ayan:
Um, I guess one of the things that really stood out for a lot of people was the fact that her father as her conservator effectively prevented her from removing her IUD And there was a lot of outcry around that, especially since she wanted to get pregnant but wasn't able to, um, because of what her conservator was doing. And what shocked a lot of people wasn't just that it happened, but it was perfectly legal because as I mentioned, guardians have these incredibly sweeping powers. They might be able to make decisions about your healthcare, including your reproductive care, including by forcing you to use birth control that you don't wanna use or it can mean preventing you from using birth control that you want to use, preventing you from getting an abortion that you want. So guardianship is very much, uh, reproductive rights and justice issue and I think that Britney's experience highlighted that
Lark:
We obviously have had some really public stories that have brought light to this problem and issue in the United States. You know, we have Britney Spears like we said, and you know, I'm thinking of Michael Orr, this person whose story inspired The Blindside has spoken up and said that he was under conservatorship as well. And you've talked about kind of the harm and the negative connotation that these stories bring to light. I'm wondering in your kind of dream world, what would the conservatorship system look like in our country?
Ma’ayan:
Um, so just speaking, um, for myself, um, then I think that in, in my dream world, there would be no guardianship and no conservatorship or or maybe guardianship used in exceedingly rare and very, very limited situations because there are so many better alternatives. So for example, there's um, something called supported decision making, um, where a disabled person can choose individuals who can help them weigh their options, understand their options, uh, communicate their desires, but ultimately the disabled person is the one who is making the final decision. So they're getting the supports that they need in order to exercise their autonomy and exercise their rights. So with so many better alternatives to guardianship, there's really no good reason why we should be preserving this incredibly flawed system. Um, I think that we should be moving to a massive overhaul of the system and moving instead to things like supported decision making.
Lark:
Yeah, that's so interesting. I had no idea that that was even an option. 'cause I feel like that's a big kind of talking point for folks when we talk about, you know, we've quote unquote freed Britney, right? And then she does post something on Instagram that people do not like or don't think is normal quote or, um, something that a, you know, a sane person would do. And it's like, but that doesn't mean you should not have control over your body, right? There's, there's still this thinking, this way of thinking and this, um, almost like stereotype that people have in their brain over who gets to be controlled and, and why you should all of a sudden just get that taken away from you. And so it's nice to know that there are ways that people can be supported, like you said, with still their own autonomy intact.
Ma’ayan:
Right? And there is dignity to being able to have the autonomy, to make mistakes. Um, so sometimes disabled people make decisions that other people don't agree with. Obviously non-disabled people make decisions that others don't agree with as well. Um, but when disabled people are making those decisions that other people don't agree with, then it's used as a basis for saying, well, they shouldn't have the rights to control their life at all. Um, they should have those decision making powers being taken away. And there is much less room for, um, grace and recognition that to err is human.
Lark:
There's dignity in being able to make mistakes is like shout that from the rooftops. I feel like that's put that on a shirt that I feel like sums up exactly why this is all so, so messed up. Um, you mentioned the supportive decision making as a much better, more dignified avenue to help folks who want support but to maintain autonomy. I'm wondering is there any like protection that folks who may be at risk to being put under a conservatorship have is, you know, Britney we've talked about has pretty much endless resources and even with her, like you said, it took I think 13 years, um, and that's such a long time. Is there any way folks can protect themselves from the outset or are there steps people can take to kind of prevent that or to support themselves in different ways?
Ma’ayan:
Well there are in every state, um, organizations called protection and advocacy agencies or p and a agencies, they're supposed to provide disabled people with help in those kinds of situations. Um, so if their rights are being abused, if they're being neglected, if they are, um, potentially facing a guardianship issue, unfortunately in terms of like the actual protections that exist on the court level, then those are very, very inadequate. So people are often just sort of funneled into guardianship. Um, the judge might just say, well, because this person is disabled or because this person's, um, potential guardian is claiming that they don't have the decision making ability, I'm just going to assume that they don't have that ability and just sign off on the guardianship. Um, and it's very hard for a lot of people to find that point of intervention where they can stop the guardianships from happening.
Ma’ayan:
And once someone is under guardianship, then it can be really, really hard to get help and get out of guardianship. Um, courts often just sort of, uh, defer to the guardian, um, on what the disabled person might need and might not give the disabled person very much of an opportunity to, um, speak out and to demand that their rights be respected and to also demand that their autonomy be restored. It's very hard to do what Britney Spears did and get out of guardianship. So in addition to overhauling the guardianship system as a whole, there's a lot to do with, um, reforming the guardianship system to improve some of those rights along the way. But um, improving procedural rights in itself is not enough. We, we need to do that bigger overhaul.
Lark:
Yeah, I mean what you talked about with the system and folks just kind of being forced into a lifelong conservatorship or a really, really long time, unfortunately is so common in so many kind of predatory systems we have in our country, right? You once you get in, it's so hard to get out. And, um, so many times folks at the center of those systems, folks taking on and getting the most harm put onto them are not being centered in the conversations around how to overhaul those systems and how they want to be best helped. So I'm wondering if you have advice or um, wisdom you can impart on us and how to best advocate for people with disabilities and people under conservatorships or at risk for conservatorship. How can we support them and make sure that they're being centered and listened to?
Ma’ayan:
I think that the most important thing is to follow the leadership of disabled people and make sure that disabled people have the opportunity to show that leadership, to share their stories, to share their perspectives. Because both when it comes to guardianship laws and to forced sterilization laws, disabled people have really had to fight for the power to say to the world like, hey, this is happening and it has to change. You know, it can be a real struggle to not just make people aware of these laws, but then to realize that these laws aren't necessary, they aren't justified, they aren't protective, um, because of this pervasive assumption that disabled people or some disabled people can't or shouldn't be making their own decisions that other people need to make those decisions for us. So it's about making sure that when disabled people are calling for action, then people listen and people respect what they have to say because we know that these assumptions that these laws are based on are wrong. They're dangerous. They've been used for years to justify the coercion and abuse of disabled people. And the reality is that disabled people are trying to share that when we are empowered, when we are supported, we can make our own decisions. We have every right to and policy should follow that.
Lark:
Ma’ayan, I'm so lucky to get to know you and to work with you. Um, your report is awesome. Like I said, we will link it in the show notes. We are so lucky as a community and a world to have amazing people like you fighting for the good fight. And thank you so much for joining us.
Ma’ayan:
Thank you so much for having me.
Lark:
Thank you so much to Ma’Ayan for joining us on Hearsay. That was such an important conversation. If you felt like your eyes were opened as much as mine were, I hope you check out their report, which is linked in our show notes.
CREDITS
Hearsay is a Wonder Media network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis and Hilary Woodward. Our producers are Taylor Williamson and Autumn Harris. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and Maddy Foley is our editor. Production assistance by Luci Jones and show art by Andrea Sumner. Thanks so much for listening.
BLOOPER
Jessica:
Oh, wee ahh, we ahh.
Lark:
You are now, now rocking with WILL I AM and Britney, bitch.