On the season two premiere of Hearsay, we’re joined by two incredible advocates: Billie Jean King and Fatima Gross Graves. We discuss the groundbreaking Battle of the Sexes, equal pay, Title IX, and how tennis and women’s sports are at the center of how society views—and values—women athletes. And don’t worry, Lark, Hilary, and Jessica all saw Challengers to prepare for this episode.
On the season two premiere of Hearsay, we’re joined by two incredible advocates: Billie Jean King and Fatima Gross Graves. We discuss the groundbreaking Battle of the Sexes, equal pay, Title IX, and how tennis and women’s sports are at the center of how society views—and values—women athletes. And don’t worry, Lark, Hilary, and Jessica all saw Challengers to prepare for this episode.
Learn more about the Women’s Sports Foundation: https://www.womenssportsfoundation.org/
Learn more about Title IX: https://nwlc.org/issue/education-title-ix/
Jessica:
Hi, I am Jessica.
Lark:
I'm Lark.
Hilary:
And I'm Hilary. And welcome back to Hearsay season two, where we deep dive into the cultural moments that live Rent-free in our heads and probably yours too. And today we're holding a giant fuzzy tennis ball that we're really hoping to get autographed.
Jessica:
Please.
Lark:
We are so back
Jessica:
Send it to me please
Lark:
We're so back. also stuck in my head forever.
Jessica:
So glad to be back for season two.
Lark:
We're back. We're back. Did you miss us? We're here.
Hilary:
So today we're specifically talking about 50 years ago the Battle of the Sexes. Which is like, not that network TV show thing that existed later But when Bobby Riggs then retired pro tennis player, challenged Billie Jean King, legend
Lark:
Icon
Jessica:
Queen.
Hilary:
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. , all of those nouns, uh, challenged her to a match to basically say, men are better than women.
Lark:
Wrong.
Jessica:
Spoiler alert.
Hilary:
Yeah. Spoiler alert. He did not win.
Lark:
Ya’ll thought!
Hilary:
And the course of history was forever changed. And this, you know, we've talked about this before, but 1973, none of us were, uh, watching, uh, battle of sexes. But even in that moment, uh, it, it was so huge, this thing, it was like a spectacle beyond belief.
[MEDIA CLIP: 5:44-6:00}
The following is an exclusive presentation of a BC sports. What a scene. It is almost reminiscent of college football with the celebrities present with the big band here with dancing cheerleader and all of the rest.
Hilary:
It tore, not tore apart families, but it brought a lot of,
Lark:
Probably did probably did tear apart some families. Some families somewhere were torn apart.
Jessica:
Somebody's joker origin story.
Hilary:
Yeah. Yeah. It was a moment where women's sports demanded to be taken seriously, even though the request itself was ridiculous. Yeah. And Billie Jean King took it seriously, did her homework and destroyed him straight sets.
Lark:
Amen.
Hilary:
90 million people watched around the world.
Lark:
That is absolutely wild. 90 million people.
Hilary:
Yes. More than the Super Bowl that year.
Jessica:
That's so crazy
Lark:
Like 90 million people. And I feel like it's so hard to get numbers like that these days. With asynchronous watching and streaming. Like, you literally couldn't do that unless
Jessica:
Unless it's the Superbowl.
Lark:
Right. And even still, I I mean that's nuts. 90 million people.
Hilary:
Right. And I can't think of another moment like this where like the battle of what do women get Mm-Hmm. . And how will they be recognized in their endeavors is so crystallized and so clear. Mm-Hmm. and so momentous than this. Mm-Hmm. .
Jessica:
So true.
Lark:
Truly.
Hilary:
Yeah. And so we're gonna talk a little bit about why it mattered so much and what changed because of it.
Lark:
The reach. Yeah, the ripples.
Hillary:
But we're gonna talk about it with us, but then kind of unbelievably we're gonna gonna talk about it with Billie Jean King herself.
Lark:
Yes we are. So exciting.
Jessica:
Talk about an opener. Am I right guys?
Lark:
Truly. We said a season premier.
Hilary:
Yes. So, um, I'm gonna be joined by Billie Jean King and Fatima Goss Graves, the president and CEO of the law center, who understands I think very deeply, uh, what it is meant for women's rights broadly, just her winning that tennis match. So before we get there though, let's talk about tennis.
Lark:
Let's talk about tennis.
Hilary:
Let's volley a little bit about tennis. Oh, Lark. You look, you shouldn't have laughed. You should have not laughed at that for me, because.
Lark:
I want it all. I, as you all know, I am fresh off of seeing challengers, so I am ready for any and all tennis puns, jokes, tropes. I'm into it. Um, I was not a huge tennis fan growing up. Like my family's not big tennis people. We would like casually play in the park, but as Issa Rae said, we root for everybody black in our house,
Jessica:
Period.
Lark:
So the like Williams sisters were always huge sports icons and, but I still think I never understood quite the impact and gravity that they had. Mm-Hmm. , you know, that how unbelievable it was that they are the people that they are. And so famous. Mm-Hmm. , um, athletically. I'm generally a sports fan and I love preppy clothing evidenced by my vintage.
Hilary:
Yeah. I'm surprised this collaboration didn't happen in your life sooner. Lark x Tennis.
Lark:
I know. Like, really it's sport for me It's, um, so that has been cool. Like it's literally feels like it's been made for me. And I love that everyone else is dressing preppy now and excited for that. I love a tennis dress. I love a tennis court. I own too many for someone who does not play tennis.
Jessica:
They're so comfy.
Lark:
They're so and flattering. Everyone looks good anyway. Um, and then challengers. I mean, I just feel like, like Hillary said, it's having its moment. I get me on a court asap. I'm here for this tennis revolution. I guess. I feel like pickleball ushered us in and we're here.
Hilary:
Yeah. Well I have had a longer tennis relationship. I just grew up watching it like every grand slam with my family. And at the time though, I, I did love Martina, but you know, it was like the men's game was still bigger. Mm-Hmm. and more significant. And so,
Jessica:
But it's like I can't name a single man tennis player.
Hilary:
Oh really?
Lark:
I can' name a few.
Jessica:
Yeah. I've yet to talk about like, I don't know tennis like at all other than Arthur Ashe.
Hilary:
But so look, you named a male tennis player.
Lark:
See?
Jessica:
So I get, hey, I did it. I didn't think it’d be done.
Lark:
Learning new every day.
Jessica:
Um, but yeah, I could probably only name black tennis players. Yeah. Which I think also speaks to how, it seems as though the accessibility of tennis for black people is literally only through black tennis players from what I see. Like Venus and Serena. Yeah. Coco Arthur Ashe. Like the history breaking and they had to be extraordinary. Versus like ordinary or like non-black tennis players. Sorry Hilary.
Hilary:
Yeah. I grew up with all the like, you know, European Lendl. I really liked Goran Ivanisevich for no real particular reason.
Lark:
I will say they do the tennis player names from all countries are pretty good.
Hilary:
Yeah. Um, and I had definitely like a full teenage crush on Andre Agassi . There were at the time, and this is like a common tennis thing and honestly speaks to challengers very well of like, there are two different personalities presented at the top of the game and you see yourself in one of them. And for me it was like Andre Agassi was like the messy cool, good one. Solid returner. Um, and Pete Sampras was like the robot perfectionist. Mm-Hmm. . And I was like bored of the robot perfectionist . And I liked the messy. And so like, I've always been into tennis, but I was, you know, the men's game was bigger Mm-Hmm. for so long. And it really changed with Venus and Serena.
Like in particular though, obviously before that it changed with Billie Jean King. Um, who created, I mean the women's tour in the first place. Mm-Hmm. , like the Women's Tennis Association did not exist without her. She created it. Um,
Lark:
Which is wild. That all this stuff is that recent and new.
Hilary:
And since then, tennis has like been ahead of other sports. Especially when it comes to like gender equality equal pay. Mm-Hmm. Um, to, you know, how women are recognized which sponsorship deals they get all of it, which is weird. 'cause as a sport itself, it feels behind to me in a lot of other ways.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Lark:
That's what I was thinking. Since I've been processing Challengers, like I feel like it did such a good job of putting in your view the reasons we love and the reasons we hate tennis. Like without being too on the nose about it. Like it shows the class dynamic. You know, she talks about how they went to the prep school Mm-Hmm. . And she was on like the scholarship program. Right. And like the gendered dynamics of who's masculine, who's feminine, you know, who can overreact and scream and who can't. And who can smash their racket and like the how they dress and how they show up and how, how much of tennis is about your clothing and how you look on the court. Mm-Hmm. . And when you come in and who's in your entourage and who your sponsors are and the amount of money, like you said, that there's so much money involved in the sport itself, which is rare, I feel like, for especially women athletes. But in all the other ways too. You know, they made such a point to show how successful with endorsements, Tashi, and art were even though she had not had a professional career, you know, that they still. She was equivalent in money value for sponsorships with him and he's Mm-Hmm. the reigning, you know, pro.
Hilary:
And especially them together. Spoiler.
Lark:
Right. Like that I think was, I think they just clocked it all in a way that.
Jessica:
I don't think it's a, they literally have it in the trailer.
Hilary:
Well. I told you this.
Jessica:
Oh yeah. So we said that Hillary saw it without seeing the trailer.
Lark:
Oh, what?
Jessica:
She said little information as possible. I thought she didn't look at tweets, like No, she literally didn't even see the trailer.
Lark:
Wow. Memes ruined it for me.
Jessica:
I saw the tennis with like, the ball thing. Like before I saw it but I didn’t know what it meant.
Hilary:
This is what it's like to be out of touch ya’ll
Lark:
To have a normal, healthy relationship with social media. That’s what that’s like?
Jessica: because the trailer came out like before or during the strike. I can't remember.
Lark:
Long ago. Yeah.
Jessica:
So like during the strike, like, I've been waiting for this movie for so long. 'cause I was like, this trailer looks so good. And so after I saw challenges, I had been looking for tennis lessons for me and my boyfriend.
Lark:
Correct.
Jessica:
. Yes. Because we saw it together. And I was like, no like
Hilary:
Yeah. But what happens when one of you goes to serve and then like, places your ball. Right. Sorry, I can't . Yeah. No.
Jessica:
Then I'm banging my racket, then I'm freaking out. On the ground. Yeah. Clearly it, it showed the importance of expressing anger, which I think we do need to normalize more in society, especially for women.
Lark:
Well and it gets so
Hilary:
Her scream
Lark.
The famous Serena scream. Yeah. Like I love that they put that in there. Tashi’s scream on the court and off. Mm-Hmm. . Because Serena famously has been unduly punished. Yeah. For her quote, anger when men are literally smashing wreck Yeah. Flipping benches.
Hilary:
John McEnroe is now like the head of, you know, he's like the chief commentator for all like tennis. And yet was unable to control himself. Ever. So part of what I'm excited to talk to Billie Jean King about is we talk all the time, I guess, about how pop culture can be a mirror for society. Mm-Hmm. . But I can't think of like a more clear mirror than women's sports and the rest of society. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. what we're paid, how we're treated, how we're policed. Mm-Hmm. how we're, um, able to succeed or not. And so I think that, uh, as someone who's been in this fight, been leading it for so long, I'm excited to see what she's seen today. With women's basketball. Mm-Hmm. With women's soccer. With women's hockey. Mm-Hmm. There's so much happening. Um, and the other kind of angle on women's sports in particular is Title ix, which is about education and the, you know, access to education, but it's also about sports. Yeah. And it's also about, uh, survivors of sexual assault.
Jessica:
Title IX is literally like the floor. It should be the floor. Mm-Hmm. of like, what we can and should be able to achieve. Mm-Hmm. .
Lark:
Well, and it just affects all parts of life. Right.
Jessica:
Literally everything. Work
Lark:
Like it is school. It is sports, it is your safety. Like, it's everything all wrapped in. And I'm, yeah. I'm really excited to see what Billie Jean King says about all of that. Especially like you said, she's led the fight, but she's also stayed in it. Like, I feel like a lot of people are kind of thrown into these big moments whether they want to or choose to or not. Mm-Hmm. and then kind of live their own lives, you know, and, and are grateful for that moment. But she has quite literally made it like her life's work and still continues to like, make sure change is happening. That progress is still happening. Mm-Hmm. and is physically involved. You know, she's at the hockey games.
Jessica:
She's very much taking advantage of the position she has.
Lark:
Yeah. It's really just incredible to see. There are not many people doing it like her.
Hilary
Nope. Mm-Hmm.
Jessica:
We could earn a thing or two.
Hilary:
So I'm so excited, uh, for this conversation with Billie Jean King and Fatima Goss Graves. I imagine I'm gonna learn a lot and also I'm just gonna try to stay coherent during it . 'cause I'm gonna be so excited. Um, but I, I can't wait.
INTERVIEW
Hilary:
I'm thrilled to be joined by two incredible advocates and leaders to talk about women's sports and tennis in particular, and this long legacy of breaking barriers for how society views women. First, let me introduce and say hi to Fatima Goss Graves president and CEO of the National Women's Law Center, who is not just an incredible lawyer, but also a policy expert, a parent, and if rumors are true, a really good tennis player in her own right. Uh, thanks for joining us on Hearsay today, Fatima.
Fatima:
I'm so glad to be here. I do not want you to put big rumors out there about me being excellent at tennis. I play.
Hilary:
Well. That is, uh, all I need to hear to know that I'd like to see you in a court someday, . And then I can't even express how excited I am to say that. We have Billie Jean King with us today. Billie Jean King won 39 Grand Slam titles and three World Team Tennis Championships. She founded the Women's Sports Foundation, which just celebrated its 50th anniversary as well as the Women's Tennis Association. She was the first female athlete to receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom. She founded the Billie Jean King Foundation and is part of the ownership groups of the Los Angeles Dodgers and Angel City FC and is on the advisory board of the Professional Women's Hockey League. She's also a New York Times bestselling author and I totally recommend that everyone read her incredible biography All In. Welcome to Hearsay, Billie Jean.
BJK:
Hello. How are you? Hi, Hilary
Hilary:
. Hi. Thank you for being here.
BJK:
Thanks for having me. This is great. I love the National Women's Loss Center. Anyway, so much. The Women's Sports Foundation has worked with the National Women's Loss Center almost 50 years really. As long as they've been around, I think, aren't you about 50 or 51 years old too? You're right in that wheelhouse, I think.
Fatima:
Yeah. This is our 52nd year.
BJK:
Right. See, it's about the same. I knew that because what happened is, back when Title IX was passed in 1972, we had an 800 hotline, you know, in those days before we had social media and everything. And they would call us. I said that we could, we have to have lawyers, we have to have people that know the law. And is there any women's organization? And Marsha Greenberger and Nancy Campbell, I think they're the co-founders of the National Women's Law Center. We met with them and every time we have anything to do with Title IX or any legal things to do with women's sports and girls sports, we go right to the National Women's Law Center.
Hilary:
Thank you for that. And good things happened 50 years ago, as far as I can tell.
BJK:
It sure looks like it.
Hilary:
There was a Title ix, the Law Center, the Women's Sports Foundation, and also 51 years ago or so, was the infamous Battle of the Sexes , when you beat Bobby Riggs in straight sets with 90 million people watching around the world. And so I'd love for you to kind of talk about the memories from that, that sort of stay with you now and if you knew how groundbreaking and galvanizing it would be.
BJK:
I actually did understand it I think. I think that's what helped me actually win. The birth of women's professional tennis was in 1970 when nine of us signed a $1 contract. I had made it a goal to make over a hundred thousand dollars because no woman had ever done that. And I wanted people to really pay attention to our tour. And I'm thinking, how can we get attention? So the three things that we said were, and this is really our three guiding lights really, is that any girl, any girl born in this world, that she's good enough, would have a place to compete because we did not have that before really. Number two, to be appreciated for our accomplishments, not only our looks. And number three, to able to make a living in what we love to do. So those were the three guiding lights. and I think they still hold true today. So here we are. We're just in our third year of women's professional tennis.
Bobby Riggs, who is a former number one player in the world, one of my heroes. I knew all about him. He started getting upset 'cause we were starting to make money. We had a tour for the first time. And so Bobby started to go to other players besides me to find out if he could get them to play. And a lot of people said no. Margaret Court, who was number one at the end of 1973, said yes. It was a big check for us in those days. And I told Margaret, she's from Australia. I said, Margaret, this is not about a tennis match. This is about social change. This is about changing the hearts and minds of people and all that. And she said, okay. And I said, you have to win. Okay, you promise me you'll win. She said, okay, . Well, she lost really badly. And so after Wimbledon, we announced that I would play Bobby Riggs because I knew if she lost, I'd have to play. At least I decided I was gonna do that.
And you're right, it was huge. To give you a sense, there was only four television stations in those days. No social media. The Super Bowl had 53 million that year. We had 90 million for this match. So that gives you a sense of the magnitude. And everybody was betting. I mean, they were talking about it. They had parties in the burbs. A lot of couples would make bets. If Billy wins, then you have to make breakfast the rest of the year. or Bobby wins, I'll get you coffee, whatever. So it was huge. But Here was my goal to change the hearts and minds of people. And Title IX had just been passed the year before, which I was very clear on. And I wanted to make sure it was strengthened, not weakened. Because, you know, things get weakened very quickly.
Things can change. Roe versus Wade’s a perfect example. So anyway, by beating him, it did change the minds and hearts of people. For women, it helped them have more self-confidence. They would come up to me and they had given up basically in life in a lot of ways. And they said, you know what? You beat him. I've changed my mind. I have goals for the rest of my life. I'm gonna go for it. And others would say, I'm gonna ask for a raise. Some of 'em I asked, I said, well, more importantly, did you get the raise? And they said, yeah, actually they did get it. But they'd waited 10 years to even ask for it. Mm-Hmm. So these are the things that started to shift. The girls started to think about, to want to ask for what they want and need, which I keep telling him to do.
BJK:
And also, we couldn't get a credit card in 1973 on our own. And I think it was 75, I'm not sure if I have the year right, that we finally did, we could get a credit card on our own. And these are the kinds of things that it, um, influenced. And I think it was a continuation. When I first met President Obama, uh, in the Oval Office, he said to me, you know, I was 12 years old when I saw that match. And now I have two girls. And it really helped me to think about how to raise them. So it did influence people. I mean, President of the United States, that was pretty good. Um, . So, uh, I thought that was really good. But I think, and people still bring it up every single day since that match.
Hilary:
Right. It's hard for me to think of anything where you can draw a line so clearly. Right. From a sports event. But Fatima, I'm wondering if anything comes to mind for you of, of another moment in sports that affected how women are viewed in sports, but also then went further and affected society too.
Fatima:
I can't help but think about this last woman's March Madness.
Hilary:
I know
Fatima:
And it some of what you're talking about Billy, with everyone tuning in. Mm-Hmm. . And it becoming a cultural moment. We had folks who were coming over for dinner and they said, listen, it's late. Maybe it's too late to have dinner, but actually we're willing to come if you have the women's game on. And I didn't even know that they liked women's basketball. . It turned out they had never tuned in to the Women's March Madness before. They'd only tuned into the men's. But they wanted to see Caitlin Clark play. They wanted to see Angel Reese play, and they wanted to make sure , that they were a part of this cultural event that everybody was gonna be talking about. Right. Right. And so I feel like the window is opening in terms of basketball right now. And the, and what might be possible.
BJK:
Well, I think it's great you mentioned that because it's so exciting for me too. 'cause I've waited my whole life for all these things to happen. But one of the big reasons they're happening is because of Title ix. Title IX made the difference. Because if you notice, where did the NFL get their players from? They got it from college, you know, the NBA from college. Well, in 1972 when we passed Title ix, we didn't have anything. But why do we have these opportunities now? Because Caitlin is now in to 50 years after Title ix. That's why she's around. Or Angel Reese or any of these kids. But more importantly, it's like what it did for the sport. I just kept thinking, thank you Title ix, thank you, title ix. That's all I do all the time. Because without all, all these opportunities we've had in the last 50 years, we wouldn't have this talent pool for women's professional sports or for women's collegiate sports. So that's what we're seeing
Hilary:
I totally agree. Thank you thank you title IX. Again, in the run of celebrating really good things that happened 50 years ago, the US Open celebrated 50 years of equal prize money, which, uh, I think laid the groundwork for the same equal pay fight we saw with the US women’s national soccer team. And, and even equal pay fights we see all over the place. And of course you made that happen Billie Jean. Can you tell the story of finding a sponsor and convincing them that, that we needed equal prize money?
BJK:
Well, 1972, which was the second year of women's professional tennis. But the US Open had been going on for a long time. And when I won the tournament, I was sitting with the media and I don't know, there was a part of me, I just had had it. 'cause we, we had been fighting for a long time since the sixties to change our sport from, you know, amateur to pro. The men didn't want us. So anyway, I'm sitting there and I go, I don't think the girls are women or we're not gonna come back next year if we don't get equal prize money. I think I was getting 10,000 maybe for winning, and the male winner got 25,000. So, you know, it was less than half. And so I said, we're not coming back. And then I'm thinking to myself, oh Billie, you really did blow this because I haven't even talked to the women yet.
BJK:
. I always talk to them first. So afterwards I went and talked to 'em and they said, okay, we'll go with you on that. And I'm went, you will? And they said yes. So by this time, I've already owned, uh, tournaments with my former husband, Larry. So we started owning, uh, tournaments or doing exhibitions or whatever in 1968. And so I thought to myself, I have relationships with different sponsors and different companies and everything, so I'm gonna go talk to everybody. I went and talked to people. I said, could you know two or three of you come together and make up the difference and, you know, for equal prize money next year? And I said, one of you or two, whatever.
BJK:
So Bristol Myers walks up to me and he says, uh, we wanna do all of it. We don't, we wanna do it by ourselves. We don't want anybody else with us. I said, are you, are you serious? I said, yes. I said, okay. So I went to Billy Talbert, who's a tournament director, the boss basically, of the tournament. And I told him, we've done a survey, which was better than we thought, that people thought women should be getting more. And then I said, more, most importantly, I've got the money for you next year. You do not have to go and raise one dime. He kind of went ashen. And he looked at me, he said, really? I said, yes. So about six months later, he announced we're gonna have equal prize money. Well, I thought the board of the USTA had voted on it, but now I'm finding out a thousand years later that they did not vote.
BJK:
Billy Talbert on his own just announced it and made it happen. So I'm indebted to him. I wish I'd known when he was alive, but I did not. And so that's the reason we had equal prize money in 1973. But if you notice, I went out and got the sponsor. I, instead of just asking for it and praying for it, do something about it. And because I understood the business, which when players of every any sport come up to me and say, well, what should I know? What should I learn when they're young? I go learn the business, learn the other side. Who's investing in you? How did they do that week or two weeks or whatever, and whatever sport you're in, learn the business so you understand every part of it. And so you have empathy for every single person involved.
Hilary:
It's amazing, Fatima thinking about that victory and, and some of the good advice that Billie Jean just gave us. Um, are there lessons from that you think that help us today as we're still fighting to close the wage gap in, in other areas for women?
Fatima:
There were a lot of lessons in there because there's often a lot of good lessons from, from sports that apply to our lives. But, uh, what I heard Billie describing was both an inside strategy and an outside strategy and a key part that outside strategy was sort of naming a bold place, right? She named that maybe we're not coming back, right? Which was probably really scary at the time. I can't imagine what that took. Uh, but having something bold outside that, that people might be willing to rally around. Sometimes you need to lead the huge rallying charge and have, um, the masses with you on that.
Or sometimes you just need the right set of folks to be aligned on that. But that inside game, understanding the business which means that she understood all the arguments that they might make. Right? She understood that. They might say, uh, you know what, we just can't afford it. We'd love to pay you fairly, but it, you know, the money's not there. And so she said, well, we got the money. I, so I'm inspired by that because when I think about the range of campaigns we're waging around equal pay, um, there is a huge cultural component where people are aligning around things that seem big and bold and maybe scary. But there's a really important piece of it that is understanding the arguments they will make, understanding that actually it pays to pay people fairly it pays to not discriminate. And that those are things that are actually good for business too. They're good for your customers, they're good for your employees, and, and they are good for the economy.
BJK:
I mean, 47% of the workforce are women and only 27% are on boards. So we have to change that. We have to get women of color up to speed. I mean, even white women and Asian women don't, still don't make a hundred percent of what men do. But Black women takes another year. Hispanic or Latina take a year and almost actually 10 months to be equal. I mean, it's just pathetic. So we have to start really, as Fatima talks about, the cultures are very important to include and think about and listen to.
And when you get up to more than 27%, where we are now of women on boards, you actually make a bigger profit at your company. So if you're a CEO and you don't worry about this, and the, the rest of the company doesn't shame on you because that's not fair to your, um, shareholders. If you're a public company, it's not fair to anyone. So it's really, really important to, to pay attention to that. But realize if you make this right in your company, that you're actually gonna make up to 16% better net profit. And that is money and economics. It's not, it has nothing to do with gender, nothing to do with color except green, I guess. And that's it.
Hilary:
Exactly. So I wanted to give Fatima a chance to talk about kind of where we are in the fight for Title IX now 50 years later. Um, and you even Fatima recently testified in the House of Representatives about its protections and the opportunities it provides for girls in school and athletics. But even past that, and another piece of Title IX is that we have been fighting for inclusion for trans girls in sports and, and for their equal education and opportunities as well. But it hasn't always been easygoing lately, I think with that. Um, and that's part of what you were testifying about.
Fatima:
Yeah, you know, so in December, I, I had the chance, uh, although I don't wanna say it was the pleasure. I don't know if it was to testify about Title IX and the first thing I wanna say is I did talk really broadly about its scope, its purpose, and the range of things that I thought Congress should be focused on. If they wanted to focus on Title ix. They needed to be thinking about still equal chances to play. They needed to be thinking about students who are survivors of harassment and they needed to be thinking about students who are pregnant and parenting. I had a long list. The hearing though, became probably more of a forum to put out a lot of really nasty and maybe unfair stereotypes about transgender young people. And I, I should tell you, Hilary, that, um, I don't know if you know this, I, so my dad was a football player and had three girls. He had no sons. and he believed very strongly that everybody should play sports. He did. You know, it didn't matter which sport, but you needed to play for a whole range of reasons for being a good teammate, for learning to be a leader, for being active and healthy in your life.
So we all played sports. So I believe deeply that everybody should have the chance to play. And that that is more true for young people. That the, the benefits are really great. And I think this debate around, uh, trans inclusion in sports, it feels like bullying. It feels like bullying a very small part of the population that are under a lot of threat right now. Um, bullying them out of the chance to play out of the chance to be a leader in this way ought to have the chance to have many of those healthy outcomes. And so I feel pretty strongly about it. I think even if I wasn't at the National Women's Law Center, I would feel strongly about it. 'cause I, I feel like it's unfair. But what I also am clear about is that Title IX,and the legal interpretations, we have consistently been able to win in court, they also say trans kids should have a chance to play.
BJK:
For history sake. Please go and read the 37 words, title ix. It's really simple. It really was originally there not for women's sports. It was there for quotas in the classroom. And Fatima, if I'm wrong, please correct me because I like to learn. But my understanding was it was, it was to do with quotas in the classroom. It's, if you wanted to go to Harvard and get your medical degree, they only allowed 5% of the class to be women.
Fatima:
Yeah.
BJK:
And so in, in those 37 words, you'll see the word activity and the co-writers, um, and people should know it was Patsy Mink, uh, Congresswoman Patsy Mink was considered the mother of Title ix. I knew, um, Senator Birch Bayh from Indiana. He was one of my heroes. And he told me this because I didn't have the opportunity to meet Congresswoman Mink, but I had time with, time with, uh, congressman. And, uh, he said, Billie, you see that word activity? Well, as one of the co-authors, I can tell you right now, we weren't sure if we're gonna put it in or take it out. We kept putting it in, take it out, put it in, take it out. He says, I'm so thrilled that we left it in, because if we hadn't left that in, women still probably would not be getting sports scholarships.
So, you know, you look back and you look at these opportunities or, or lack thereof or things. Can you imagine? They were debating. And I'm like, oh, I had no idea. Thank God. I didn't know at that time. But he was just so happy they left it in because he was, he was a jock anyway, but, and he understood the values of it because you do learn leadership. One thing we've learned with girls is that it teaches them, uh, leadership, resiliency, all the positive things in life and also teaches in business. That's why 94% of women in c-suites, uh, identify with being an athlete. Half of those, uh, were in D1, uh, schools, playing sports on a sports scholarship. Um, so it makes us winners in life. And that's why I want girls to be in sports. I don't care if they're any good. I want 'em just to experience the culture.
Fatima:
Yeah. You know, Billie, I mean, you were, you were right at the time. If you think about what, what the state of play was in education in 1971, there were caps on women and girls in professional schools. There were a lot of schools that certain programs they didn't want women going into. And you see that legacy still in some places.
BJK:
Yeah. Like science and math.
Fatima:
That's right. In science and math and assumptions that we hold about what fields women might go into. And so the, you know, the work of Title ix, I feel like is an a journey over time that we can't sit back and say it's done. It, it takes ongoing enforcement, but also ongoing reminders of the possibility of everyone getting to benefit from being equal in school.
Hilary:
So I, I have two sons, uh, Billie Jean and the youngest is such a huge fan of yours. He's nine. Um and
BJK:
What's his name?
Hilary:
Miles.
BJK:
Miles. Love it.
Hilary:
He had me today bring with me my copy of the Brad Meltzer book, I am Billie Jean King. Uh, his copy he wanted, I said, you know, she's not gonna see it . He said, it doesn't matter. I want you to have it with you.
BJK:
Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah. It's a spirit.
Hilary:
The books have been so meaningful to him, and so, uh, he's learned so much and, and, you know, kind of found all these incredible heroes through it. But parents, you know, we've, we've been talking and hearing about book bans, but a parent in Florida actually tried to get your book banned.
BJK:
Yes, that's true.
Hilary:
And it obviously, it's infuriating. Like, how could anyone dare to kind of erase, uh, these stories that are so meaningful to so many kids? Um, and I wonder as you hear that, like, do you feel like there's something in our advocacy around civil rights that needs to change as, as, as people are, are saying that even the story is too meaningful to be heard?
BJK:
Well, I think she wanted it banned because we're gay is the main reason.
Hilary:
Right. .
BJK:
Um, no, we have to keep drying and fighting and we need the law on our side. And generally, I found people, if you're, if you're a small number being gay, we're such a small percentage of the total it's easy to pick on us. And, uh, it's easy to pick on people when they don't have a huge crowd of the same Mm-Hmm. And I don't know what it is about people, but I don't want everyone to be the same. I don't want to be the same color. I don't want us to be the same religion. I don't want any of that. But that's what people like, they feel comfortable because like speaks to like, and instead of understanding, to really stretch your learning and have, oh my God, the palette is so much richer and greater when you meet different people and, listen to their ideas and listen to how they were raised. Listen to what's important to what foods are important to them. Everything. So I, I think it's really important to, to listen to each other.
Hilary:
If there are other young people kind of reading these stories, what would you tell them if they wanna become advocates like you?
BJK:
I think the most important thing for a person is lived their authentic life and you define yourself. Don't let others define you. Because believe me, as we grow up, as we go through our lives, we keep hearing how we should be defined instead of looking into our own hearts and minds and asking ourselves, how do I wanna define myself instead of letting the world define me? Is it easier? No, it's harder sometimes, but you have, I think being true to yourself will win out in the long run. And we'll have true happiness.
Hilary:
Well, thank you both so much for your time and for this conversation. Um, I feel so strongly that your advocacy as a player and a leader throughout your life, Billie Jean, has made the world better for my generation and generations to come. And that the advances we're seeing for women on the court will keep happening off the court because of you, Fatima.
BJK:
Thank you. I do wanna thank you, Hilary, but I also want to thank, um, Fatima for being our leader. The leadership at the National Women's Law Center is so important to this world and this country. So I wanna thank you for your leadership. Uh, Fatima.
Fatima:
Oh, Billie Jean, thank you for all you do. Always.
CREDITS:
Hearsay is a Wonder Media Network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis, and Hilary Woodward. Our producers are Taylor Williamson, Adaysuwa Agbonile, and Luci Jones. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and Maddy Foley is our editor. Show Art by Andrea Sumner.
BLOOPER
Jessica:
What is with this mullet cut, Hilary?
Lark:
the hair. That was his thing.
Hilary:
Wait, you're googling Andre Agassi ?
Jessica:
Yeah, because I, I Told you I didn't know any of these people.
Lark:
That was his thing. Wait, do you It's.
Hilary:
He’s just straight bald now though. Yeah.
Jessica:
But it works for him.