Living Single, a sitcom featuring six Black roommates in New York was a hit when it debuted on Fox in 1993. But in 1994, NBC created an eerily similar show with a white cast called Friends. They aired in direct competition, and the rest is history. We explore Living Single’s legacy and the repercussions of co-opting and devaluing the work of Black women.
Living Single, a sitcom featuring six Black roommates in New York was a hit when it debuted on Fox in 1993. But in 1994, NBC created an eerily similar show with a white cast called Friends. They aired in direct competition, and the rest is history. We explore Living Single’s legacy and the repercussions of co-opting and devaluing the work of Black women.
Living Single vs. Friends: Erika Alexander Speaks Out: https://zora.medium.com/why-the-friends-vs-living-single-twitter-beef-really-matters-ce54d9559457
Erika Alexander says the 'Living Single' and 'Friends' needs 'a larger conversation': https://www.today.com/popculture/tv/erika-alexander-says-living-single-friends-needs-larger-conversation-rcna83757
Hilary:
Hi, I’m Hilary.
Lark:
I'm Lark
Jessica:
I'm Jessica. And welcome to Hearsay where we deep dive into the cultural moments that live rent-free in our heads and probably yours too. And today we're going to live in a nineties kind of world and be glad we have our girls. We are talking about the sitcom Living Single, and a little later I'm gonna be talking to two of our incredible colleagues who also happen to be living single fans. We can share our hot takes about the show, but also talk about living Single versus Friends, another sitcom, and what that debate about the two shows means for representation and pay transparency.
Lark:
Yes. Now I just have the theme song stuck in my head. ,
[Living Single theme song fades in]
Jessica:
We were debating on whether or not we would sing it
Lark:
Like the nineties show intros, like a real song, some like dramatic. There's like break dancing in that one, like trying to be very, yeah. New York, I feel like, and I think shows just don't have those anymore.
Jessica:
For those of you who don't know what Living Single is, it is a sitcom that was created by Yvette Lee Bowser and it starred Queen Latifah. Mm-Hmm. just take a second Queen Latifah ,
Hilary:
Like a drum roll before.
Jessica:
Yeah literally like that, that should alone tell you
Lark:
Starting Lineup.
Jessica:
How impactful and how amazing the show was. But Queen Latah, Eric Alexander, Kim Coles, and Kim Fields, and it originally aired from 1993 to 1998. Oh. mm-Hmm. . Um, and it was a launchpad for a lot of those actresses and actors, and also kind of the starter for a lot of trends and tropes in shows, whether you know it or not. Um, and ended before I was born. So
Lark:
That's, um, yeah keep that to yourself
Hilary:
When you said those years, I was ready to challenge you on which of those you saw. How Do you know Jessica?
Jessica:
Well, the whole thing
Lark:
Doing some research.
Jessica:
Yeah. you know, , I gotta, there's like the pinnacle shows I think that everyone argues for like a society, but especially as like a Black child. Yeah. My parents being like, you have to watch this. Yeah. So the show obviously ended over 25 years ago. And it has become more relevant in the past few years. Friends has also been around for just as long and their, their stars have been clamping on down on their legacies. It has become such a cultural institution while the Living Single stars are kind of just doing whatever Yeah. And being themselves and doing amazing things and have moved on. I mean, I watched it during the pandemic. Mm. I was living at my parents' house. Mm-Hmm. . Um, as
Hilary:
For the first time you watched it?
Jessica:
The first time I watched it. Yeah. Like I had never even heard of it. Wow. Um, but then obviously mom was like, have you not seen this? Right. Im like, the only way I would've heard of this was through you. Yeah. Right. So what are we talking about?
Hilary:
Because I was not yet born when it was on. It's a fair def defense.
Jessica:
How have you not seen this? That is such like a parent, like, how did you not see? I'm like, you would've shown it to me.
Hilary:
It's your personal failing as a parent. It's not mine.
Jessica:
Yes. It's not mine. And so I had like a routine like every morning and during that time I was in college, I'd get up, go for a run, come home, eat breakfast with my mom and my brother, and then Living Single would be on. Yeah. So that's kind of when I started it
Lark:
It. It's, it's always on, I feel like. And same with friends. Like, I remember friends being on, I came on Nick at night after the kids show, and I remember that was like, you'd have to start brushing your teeth whatever time that came on. It was like, this is it. You get one episode of Friends and then you need to be in bed. And so we lusted after it'cause it was the show we couldn't watch and yeah and it was like the adult show after. But I didn't watch either of the shows like sequentially for a long time. Like Living Single a couple years ago, I think probably around the same time as you did. Mm-Hmm. . Um, I feel like that's when it went on Hulu or Max…
Jessica:
Yeah. It's on Hulu and it's on Max now too. Yeah.
Lark:
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . And I watched it from start to finish and it was so good. I've still never watch Friends sequentially, but
Hilary:
You don't need to. It's okay.
Lark:
Yeah. , I feel like I've seen probably like 50% of it. Okay. Um, I mean, as a millennial it's inescapable. The amount of like Instagram captions I still see on a weekly basis of people announcing Yeah. Engagements, babies, marriages, running a marathon. New jobs. The one where, like bachelorette party T-shirts. Um, you can't miss it.
Hilary:
I mean, I feel like I'm the problem, the reason people talk about Friends and they don't watch Living Single like I am the, maybe, maybe it's not fault.
Lark:
You're not the problem fault. No.
Hilary:
Right. But I am a, I'm a poster child for what happened, which was, uh, I was like definitely alive, uh, to start , uh, while these aired and watched Friends. Um, I watched Friends first like kind of earnestly I, you know, I how old I was in high school, I guess. Mm-Hmm. when it was on. So like, I watched it, talked about it, liked it, turned on it, you know, the whole journey. You go on a show , um, there are parts that I adored. There's maybe a certain Type A to Monica that, that, uh, really competitive was always my favorite. Yeah. My favorite episode is the one where they compete over the apartment. I'm already giving Friends too much air time. like, I forget which of you said like, let's talk about Living Single. Like had to confess that I'd never seen it, even though I knew about it.
Hilary:
Right. I knew who, I knew Queen Latifah was on it. So I watched it, um, for the first time and was overcome by how much things that I had watched otherwise had ripped off. Yeah. Yeah. Living Simple. Like, I just couldn't, I know everyone said it, but it was like, oh, Sex and the City does not exist without the show. Yeah. Every archetype you can like map onto them perfectly. Mm-Hmm. . And it wasn't even subtle and I was, I felt even worse, I guess. Yeah. Like retroactively for not watching it. And you know, the question is why didn't I Mm-Hmm. . And it, I think it has a lot to do with marketing, but I think there's built-in assumptions, right? Like, Living Single wasn't marketed to me. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. But it could have been, I would've been into it. Right. There's no difference.
Hilary:
Right. Between the ages of the characters in relationship to me at that point, there's no reason for me to not watch it. I would've been into them and I was now like, they're adorable. , you know, and I, and um, you know, I was already picking who I liked. Mm-Hmm. and who I was. Mm-Hmm. . There was someone to imprint on somebody and that didn't matter because it was a Black show. Like I was still there for it. Yeah. But they didn't, in some ways I felt like I wasn't given a chance. It wasn't advertised to me. And I think that probably happened to a lot of people. And,
Lark:
And I feel like, yeah. It's still not like it's only on at my house because my dad constantly is watching BET. Like, you know, it's like it's not on where Friends is on, you
Hilary:
Nick at Nite. When you said that, I mean, I gasped
Lark:
I mean, Living Single was never on
Jessica:
It's only VH1 and BET. Like you would never see a rerun of it on Nick at Nite on USA like on any other places where
Lark:
TBS or something, you know, like there's no
Jessica:
Only Black channels rerun Black shows even when they're not Black shows and nobody even is a Black show. Right. When you really think about it. Like, I don't know when every time Black History Month and you turn on your streaming and it's like celebrating Black stories. Right. And it's like a slave movie and then like maybe like
Lark:
Selma. Yeah.
Jessica:
And Insecure. You know, insecure is amazing. Obviously
Lark:
It was made with the Black audience in mind. Mm-Hmm. . But it was for everyone. Yeah. You know, like Insecure is the same way. It's like Yeah. If you know, you know, you're still gonna enjoy it no matter what and you're like, it's still an incredible show.
Hilary:
Well, so the part that's interesting right is that Warner Brothers made both shows and you know, that Warren Littlefield at, who had NBC at the time saw Living Single saw It was successful. At the time, I think it was the highest rated show on Fox. I think so. So it was like doing well,
Jessica:
It was doing so well
Hilary:
Certainly doing well on Fox
Hilary:
Yeah. Right. A smaller network than NBC at that point. 'cause the networks were all weird. Different network meant something then and don't mean anything now. But you know, like they saw Living Single’s success and said, how can we recreate this? And, you know, shrewdly Mm-Hmm. made a show very similar, friends, apartment post-college life Mm-Hmm. Life, but made them all white and marketed the hell out of the show. And it did great. And they made, you know, more money than anyone ever the history of the world. Yeah. Yeah. Can't fact check the lessons sentence. But you know, they, you know, they made So much.
Lark:
I think it broke records for
Hilary:
No, it did for cast pay. And Yeah.
Lark:
I think up until like Big Bang Theory, do you have the, the receipts, Jessica?
Jessica:
Well, yeah, believe it or not, we do actually do research for the show. Wow.
Lark:
Well speak for yourself.
Jessica:
define we
Lark:
You did. Yeah.
Jessica:
And yeah, so I'm reading this article, which we will put in the show notes. This is a quote from a article. So, um, the terms are still being negotiated, but each star received between two and $4 million just to appear on the reunion.
Hilary:
They were definitely the highest paid. They all negotiated their contracts together and like got that like Big renewal. But the point was like Warner Brothers who was behind it decided that there was a cap on the Mm-Hmm. on the potential for Living Single and instead took that energy and made another show.
Jessica:
And then it's like, meanwhile, every season of living single, the budget was like a million a season.
Lark:
Yeah. Just like what each cast member is getting paid.
Jessica:
Yeah. And that's just, that's the budget for the whole season. It seems like. Not even for the cast. And it's like, you know,
Lark:
Well and to think about the talent too, of like, like you said, queen Latifah, Kim fields, like erika alexander, kim cole. all of them are, were kind of household names now, you know, and, and they make jokes in the show
Jessica:
and they had the best guest stars. Morris Chestnut
Lark:
Oh my God. I first forgot about the guest stars Nia Long, she was like, season one. Shows are not guest starring in the ways they used to.
Jessica:
No they don't do theme songs, they dont do guest stars
Lark:
I need them to bring that back
Jessica
Well kind of insecure kind of did that. Like Vince Staples and, um, what was that guy's? Amine
Lark:
God one of the best episodes of Insecure
Jessica:
It was so good. I'm from Philly .
Lark:
It's one of those things where it's like, I almost wish I didn't know this. You know, like it makes me so sad to to know that they knew that, the cast of Living Single knew that at the time. Yeah. And watched all of this happen and it happened to them, I feel like is so disheartening. I'm glad to see it get its flowers though now. I feel like that is a benefit of streaming and TikTok and seeing younger people and even not so young people rediscover the show or discover it for the first time and like post about how much they love it and, um, have people be able to experience that. And I, I hope that kind of helps not have such a disparity, but we still know the people that make the decisions, the, the networks, the producers, like the streaming services that are gonna decide who gets funded and who doesn't still is so fraught and so bad and usually pretty racist. Like I, what was it, Max who just like cut a bunch of Black shows or stuff,
Jessica:
Including Issa Rae’s show. Yeah. Uh, yeah. And it's just, it's so disheartening and it, it continues. Right, right. Like you're talk, we're talking about how back when Friends and Living Single came out over 20 years ago, the marketing was so different. Mm-Hmm. . And obviously it's like Friends is for everyone, but Living Single is just for Black people. And obviously there's certain things that you won't get unless you're Black, but you can still enjoy it no matter what. And you can learn and you can time
Hilary:
well, you'll never get it if you never watch it though.
Jessica:
Right. Exactly. That's the whole thing. And so this kind of goes into like when Lark and I decided to rewatch it and like, I guess before Hilary watched it, like when the Friends reboot was happening Mm-Hmm. and David Schwimmer was like, maybe there should be an all-Black friends or an all Asian friends. and Erika Alexander who plays Maxine Shaw attorney at law. Um, I love her. That’s a whole other conversation
Hilary:
Yeah me too. That was my first, obvious first favorite character.
Lark:
Her suits
Jessica:
Yeah. She was so good. She's so funny. Yeah. She's like, literally like if I'm cackling it's probably 'cause of something that she said
Lark:
her And Kyle's beef
Jessica):
their enemies to Lovers is, is the Blueprint
Lark:
So good.
[MAX AND KYLE CLIP]
Kyle: just another thinly veiled attempt to deny your animalistic attraction towards me, rrrrr
Max: you’re right about the animal part Fido
Jessica:
Um, but anyway, she like replied on Twitter and was like, Hey, at David Schwimmer at Friends tv, are you seriously telling me you've never heard of hashtag Living Single? We invented the template. You're welcome bro
Lark:
Oo yes
Jessica:
And she was like, yeah. The mentions afterwards she was like, I was going on a flight. I turned on my phone right after that happened. And then when I got off, it was crazy. Yeah. Um, and that's when she talked about like the, the reunion financial disparities. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and she was like, it's unfortunate 'cause the show he was in was not original. It was a knockoff. So there could never be an all Black friends. 'cause Friends wasn't all white Living Single is what she said in the article. Which will also be in the show notes.
Lark:
Yeah. It really was the knockoff. And I think a lot of the things that Living single tackled, like they tackle discrimination, they tackle wage disparities. They tackle like hair conversations and like respectability politics. They tackle so many things that Friends never did and danced around. Like they never, they all just magically had enough money to live in those giant apartments and even like
Hilary:
there's one good Friends episode where they even acknowledged the fact that they earned different salaries. Where they go to dinner
Lark:
Yes. When Joey, yes. And they talk about splitting the check
Hilary:
let’s just split the check. It's the one time. But the show existed in a bubble on purpose. To be idealized. Right.
Jessica:
Yeah. And Living Single, in my opinion, can still be idealized. Yeah. And it's still talking about money. It's still talking about dating, it's still talking about like friendship dynamics
Lark:
And it's still funny
Jessica:
It's still hilarious. And it's honestly hilarious because of the vulnerability of it all. And again, it's like, it is part of real life is being able to be like, wow, I'm romanticizing my life. Yeah. Like I'm listening to music, walking down the street, but you're still going home or you're hanging out with your friends Yeah. And you're having really fun conversations. Yeah. But you're also having really meaningful conversations. Mm-Hmm. like, this just happened at work. I'm going through this thing. Whether they're upfront about it or not, like working through things,
Hilary:
The relationships feel very grounded. Yeah. From even the bit that I saw their friendship felt like, I mean, that's the ideal right, right. To be able to have that much time with your friends. And I mean, it's funny that the friends part of this is like much pure on the show, not called friends, but the Friends show.
Jessica:
So there have been Black sitcoms since Living Single like girlfriends, which I still haven't watched and insecure. All of which only having like a few seasons Mm-Hmm. . But they've left impacts on different generations of black women. And while living single sparked conversations while it was airing, it continues to spark conversations about the importance of representation in the media. Mm-Hmm. trendsetting trailblazing. And also the need for pay transparency. Yeah. Not just in Hollywood, but everywhere. Mm-Hmm.
Hilary:
For everyone.
Jessica:
Even with the Color Purple coming out, the recent version of it. And the actors were talking about their conditions on set. Yeah. Like the differences in the different movies being produced on the same lot. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and like the food and like the treatment and the budget Mm-Hmm. . And so clearly it is time for us to really have a conversation about it. So I'm really excited that I get to talk to two of our amazing, incredible colleagues about this. And they're also Living Single fans. Mm-Hmm. . So I'm talking to Kiara and Gaylynn and hopefully we can share all of our hot takes just like we just did, but also talk about what the Living Single versus Friends debate means for representation and pay transparency.
Lark:
Yeah. I can't wait to see their thoughts as two people that watched it live, you know? Yeah. And the work they do. I'm, I just, I'm so excited to hear what they have to say about it.
Jessica:
Yeah, me too.
[transition music]
INTERVIEW:
Jessica:
I'm so excited to be sat here with two of my wonderful colleagues who also are fellow living single fanatics. Yes. We have Kiara Pesante Haughton, who is the Vice president of campaigns and communications. We have Gaylynn Burroughs, who is a director of Workplace Equality. Thank y'all so much for coming.
Kiara:
Thank you for having us.
Gaylynn:
Thank You.
Jessica:
Yeah. I've been so excited to talk to y'all about this.
Kiara:
I'm very excited to have this conversation.
Jessica:
So obviously we gotta we got a level, we gotta get down. . Do y'all have a favorite character? Favorite couple?
Gaylynn:
Well, you know, Max is iconic
[MAX CLIP]
Max: Khadijah. I am Maxine Shaw attorney at law. I lose weight, I lose patience. If you keep working my nerves, I may lose my mind, but I do not lose cases.
Gaylynn:
I mean, she's my favorite character of all time, but I'm like a Khadijah, but I like wanna be a Max, you know what I mean? Mm-Hmm. Um, like her hair, every, like, the way she dressed Mm-Hmm. everything about her was, I mean, perfect. She was out here being beautiful and bold and in control and sassy
Jessica:
And unapologetic.
Gaylynn:
I loved her
Kiara:
As, um, a a little person watching the show. Um, it was absolutely a Khadijah. I was in elementary school and middle school in the nineties. Um, I would like make up my own magazines, like, you know, like stapled together or whatever paper, construction paper in the house. And so obviously as the founder of a magazine and like the editor-in-chief of a magazine, Khadijah to me was just like, just everything. Um, her energy, like you said, sass, which she obviously shared, I think with Max Mm-Hmm. , um, just, she was a boss. Right. Yeah. And so, and I just, and I just loved that and I loved that for us Mm-Hmm. to have on TV in, in the nineties every week. I, I loved it.
Jessica:
I feel like I just realized when I was talking and saying that Max was unapologetic, all of them were
Gaylynn:
Yeah, all of them
Jessica:
And Sinclair's silliness. Yes.
Kiara:
Even Sinclair. Yes.
Jessica:
Yes. All of their silliness and unseriousness, they were standing on business. They were not, they were truly themselves. Which is what part of what made their characters butt heads a lot is because they were so rooted in their personalities and their beliefs and what kind of message and like, comfort that brings to Black people to see people who are not compromising their identities in any way, whether it's just in casual conversations or in the workplace with their friends. Whatever.
Kiara:
Mm-Hmm. I mean, for me, that entire era of television was one to behold. I don't know if we'll ever get to experience that again, but I think, you know, I look at, uh, in the early nineties, right? So like the, the end of A Different World. Mm-Hmm. rolled directly into Martin, which premiered the year before Living Single, rolled directly into Living Single. Um, we had Family Matters. We had, um, Hanging with Mr. Cooper, like there were so many of those shows that we had that showed various relationship dynamics and, and, and Black folks Mm-Hmm. , um, in various roles, whether it was as high school principals, whether it was as the editor in chief of a magazine, as lawyers, um, as financiers, you know, working at firms like Kyle did. I mean, or, or even as, um, handymen, right? Mm-Hmm. like Overton, like whatever, um, it was, but folks who were, um, educated and who were hardworking, um, but also who were funny and who, uh, loved their friends and just did like regular things. Mm-Hmm. like doing, like living regular life. That was also, I think, really profound about that era and television. And I also think just historically Mm-Hmm. as coming out of the eighties, coming out of, you know, the very intensive period around like, you know, just the crack epidemic and all those things. I think we really needed that. Mm-Hmm. like in television, we needed to see, oh, no. Like this is who we are. Right. And like, and we can be all these different things.
Jessica:
So what was it like for both of you growing up, watching it as it was airing? Um, and what do you remember feeling about watching it, whether it was like you and also your friends and families?
Gaylynn:
I mean, this was like decades ago . So like, , what was I feeling? I mean, you know, the thing about it is that it was just normal tv. It wasn't like I was watching something special, or I didn't appreciate it as something special because I was, I don't know, like,
Kiara:
Like this is TV .
Gaylynn:
Yeah. Like 12, 13 or whatever, right. Like, this is just what I was supposed to watch. You know, it's funny because you mentioned A Different World, and I remember thinking that HBCUs weren't real. Like, that was just like, what happened on tv Mm-Hmm. Like, that was like some cool special place. Right? And then for me, I being again, wanting to be Max , and so it's not surprising that I became a lawyer, but seeing someone who could say those things was very, um, you know, she always had a comeback.
[MAX AND REGINE CLIP]
Regine: you are a virus with braids.
Max: and you’re a leprechaun with a weave.Gaylynn:
Right. And like, I, I always felt like I couldn't, I didn't have those comebacks . Right. Like, it would be like 20 minutes later, I'm like, I shoulda have said that. . Right. Yeah. . And I just, I loved it. She just embodied her space. Yeah. She took up the space.
Kiara:
Yes. Yes.
Gaylynn:
And I loved that. Mm-Hmm.
Kiara:
. It's so interesting the point that you made about, um, not thinking HBCUs were real Mm-Hmm. coming outta watching Different World because we were coming out of, I think this era of like, a little bit more of like an assimilation is kind of like era where folks were like, oh no, we wanna prove ourselves that, you know, these Ivys or these PWIs or whatever. Mm-Hmm. . And then, like, these shows kind of coincide with the time where our top students were like, actually, no, I'm gonna go to Fisk. I'm gonna go to Xavier. I'm gonna go to, you know, FAM or whatever. Um, so that's one thing that I remember stuck out to me just watching the show. I think for me, the show, uh, just like warmth, it's like home. Mm-Hmm. , because I, I'm not sure how your family or your house did it, but we watched that show every week together. Mm-Hmm. . Like, that was like, we, oh, Living Single's about to be on y'all. What are y'all doing? Um, and we watched it together.
Jessica:
I can imagine like how empowering it must be.
Kiara:
And I think even for me, it being comfort and it being home, um, it still is like a smart show. Yeah. And incredibly funny and, and tackled so many issues that people are still dealing with and talking about now as, you know, Gaylynn. But, but did it in a way that really made you like, think like, I, I know one of the big issues that the show often, um, addressed and dealt with was this question of professionalism. Mm-Hmm. . And this question of like, how you show up,
[KYLE CLIP]
Kyle: I’ve come to realize that this firm values the superficial over the substantial. But I cannot violate my personal integrity. My hair is not just for fashion. It’s part of my heritage. it is a statement of pride.
Kiara:
you know, I know we have a lot of conversations about that now when there's legislation about our hair and all of this. But that was a big topic on this show because you had a lawyer, right? You had the CEO of the magazine. Mm-Hmm. . And, and to be clear, talking about unapologetic, the magazine was Flavor , right? Yeah. And that was the name of. The magazine was Flavor, and the entire newsroom was black. Mm-Hmm. and, and Right. And, um, and then Regine and her. Okay, so One, speaking of like professionals and how we show up and, and how funny it was just being in their house. You know, one of the devices of the show that I love was that a lot of us probably can resonate with some woman in our lives was Regine her many wigs and like how she named her wigs. Or she would, she would very proudly show up every day or come down the steps in a different wig every time. And that was a running joke and show up on the show was, you know, Khadijah would be like, girl, what is on your head? What is, what is this today? Who is this? Who are you today? Um, and and again though, right about professionalism, how her hair looked, whether it was a short one or a long one, whether it was a ponytail or braids, whatever. That was another thing to me like just brilliant about the show because there were, again, there were other Black shows, but they were not tackling, I think the issue quite like that about how we show up in the workplace
Jessica:
And like, even watching it in the rewatch, I almost always skip this episode, unfortunately, when the Flavor staff tries to unionize against Khadijah because I'm like, not her being
Gaylynn:
Yes. Yes.
Gaylynn:
Not her not having health insurance for her employees.
Jessica:
, not her mistreating her workers.
Kiara:
Oh my God.
Jessica:
Um, but it does touch, like, I'm like this, we need to be watching this again.
Kiara:
Yeah. No really.
Jessica:
Especially in like the media space. Yeah, yeah. Um, and talking about the working conditions of the fictional people on the show and then transitioning into the real actors.
Kiara:
Oh God.
Jessica:
So that's kind of, yeah. The connection is talking about now 20 something years later after the show already came out talking about how not only was Friends basically a rip off of Living Single, but the pay disparities Yeah. Between the two shows. Not even just 'cause of airtime, but because of
Kiara:
Racism. Oh, okay. , just make sure we were gonna say that.
Gaylynn and Jessica:
Yes.
Jessica:
Yes. I was like, uh, we know. But yes, racism,
Kiara:
I remember reading something like the cast members of friends by the time they got to like, I don't know, season three or four, whatever, were making like a million dollars in episode. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And that always stuck out to me one, as a young person, I was like, it's like Monopoly money. Yeah. I was like, what's a million dollars? Like that's a lot of money. And it was a million, like nineties dollars, it was a lot of money. Yeah. Um, . But I was very obsessed with that. I remember that number because this was also the era when like er had come out and George Clooney was out and, and they were all, that was a big deal, right? Like he was getting a million dollars in episode. Like, that was like the magic number. Yeah. In, in television to aim, aim for. Yeah.
Kiara:
If you're making a million dollars in episode, you are like, whatever, a-list, you are the top tier. And I always remember noticeably absent from those conversations would be every show that I watched, right? Martin, Living Single. Um, but that always stuck out to me as something that was so glaring, like how anyone could not see. And then as a person of like adulthood and sound mind, like realizing that Warner Brothers produced both of these shows. So not only were these shows competing at the exact same, you know, day of the week and airtime, literally they were shot like on the same lot. Yeah. So , so you have, right, like the white cast of the show, again, eventually making a million dollars an episode coming in Right. With their whatever they had, right? Mm-Hmm. , their glam, their food, their assistants, and like on the other side of the lot or whatever is the Black show Mm-Hmm. Where everyone is just like, yeah, happy to have a gig and happy to be employed and doing this really powerful thing, but like, not being fairly compensated at all,
Jessica:
And marketed
Kiara :
Or Marketed. At all. That just used to drive me crazy.
Gaylynn:
You know, the other part of that, the story about how they got the million dollars Oh, an episode, right? Is that they all, they got together and they organized and they asked for it together and, you know, and it was this like, story of triumph. But that is not extended too. Right? Like, you know, if the, if the cast of Living Single got together and organized and asked, they would've been told, you know,
Jessica:
Be grateful
Gaylynn:
Be grateful.
Kiara:
Well actually that is how the Kyle Barker, I don't know if you remember this season, that's how the Kyle Barker character, or TC Carson left the show.
Gaylynn:
What?
Kiara:
Mm-Hmm. because he went to Warner Brothers and was like, why are we not being paid ? Um, or even getting promo or, you know, like, whatever it is, right? The morning shows. The night shows. Why are we not getting that same? And they were like, well, you can kick rocks.
Jessica:
Gaylynn, as the director of workplace equality. , how would you put this conversation in the context of your work?
Gaylynn:
Well, so many of the issues that they talked about on the show still still show up, right? Mm-Hmm. . So you talked about unionizing and organizing and, you know, organizing for better pay. Mm-Hmm. The real actors. Right? And, you know, that shows up all the time in, in my work, right? Unions being, being a better gig for women in particular for Black women, right? Yeah. Um, this idea of not having people see your worth and what you deserve. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , right? That is, that that continues. That's a running theme. Mm-Hmm. . Right? That's why we see such stark pay gaps for black women, right? So, you know, the pay gap for, um, women overall, um, for women who work full-time year round is around 84 cents. Black women working full-time year round, their pay gap is much higher. It's less than 70 cents. Right.
Gaylynn:
If you're working full-time in comparison to a white man. Right? And so I remember the Twitter beef between EriKa Alexander and David Schwimmer. Right? . But that still shows up, right? Like that is still what we're dealing with. And it's, it's not because, you know, Black women aren't out there in the labor force. Historically, we've been, you know, one of the largest participators Mm-Hmm. in terms of demographics in the labor force. It's that the work that we perform isn't valued. Mm-Hmm. . And I don't like it when people talk about black women being overrepresented in low paid jobs. Yes, it's true. Mm-Hmm. But those jobs shouldn't be low paid.
Kiara:
Mm. Mm
Gaylynn:
Those are the jobs that make us able to live our lives. Right. And they're low paid in part because of the people who do it. Yep. So it's just a constant story. Mm-Hmm. of the labor of black women being exploited and also like the fragility, the fragility of our economic existence. I remember an episode where Max gets suspended from her job. Yeah. Right? Mm-Hmm. the fragility of, you know, we don't have the same kinds of cushions.
Kiara:
Mm-Hmm. .
Gaylynn:
So if we get
Kiara
Chiiiild.
Gaylynn:
right, The, the, the fear, the threat of retaliation or losing your job or Mm-Hmm. . Right. That is just, it's great for everybody, but when you don't have things to fall back on right. And more likely than not, if you are a Black mom, you are the sole or primary breadwinner in your family. you know, the, the impact reverberates for Black women, for their families, for themselves, for their communities.
Jessica:
You referenced the Twitter beef and we've kind of talked about this. But like, how does this, how highlight the importance of pay transparency?
Gaylynn:
You know, it's a lot easier to take advantage of people when they don't know how much they should be getting paid. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , right? Mm-Hmm. , we all wanna be paid fairly, but if you don't know what you should be getting right? We all be paid fairly but if you don't know what you should be getting, you know, you can be taken advantage of. You can low ball yourself. And this idea where we talked about how, you know, people should, are made to feel like they should be grateful for what they have. Mm-Hmm. . that's internalized a little bit too, right? and so I think that pay transparency is part of getting to pay quality. Um, but also we're seeing legislation meant to level the playing field. So the legislation that I'm talking about, or the laws that I'm talking about that ban salary history, consideration of salary history, um, to set pay, that's really about leveling the playing field. Mm-Hmm. and not having, um, you know, your past pay gap or the past disparity or the past discriminatio n follow you from job to job. Um, and so we're seeing those two in particular as things that are common sense.
Gaylynn:
There's a lot more that can be done, um, in Congress to strengthen equal pay laws, to increase damages. Mm-Hmm. to make it easier for people to sue, to make sure that people aren't retaliated against for talking about their payout work. Mm-Hmm. wage theft. Mm-Hmm. raising the minimum wage.
Kiara:
Oh my God. Our national shame.
Gaylynn
Right. Making sure that we're investing in jobs that are open to everybody. That we actually do have equal opportunity so that we're not sort of perpetuating occupational segregation that has pushed Black women into certain kinds of jobs. That we think about how we value those jobs and that we actually spend the money to resource those jobs. Child care jobs. Mm-Hmm. , right. Home care. Mm-Hmm. , you know, these are valuable things, but we want people to do it for pennies.
Jessica:
Mm-Hmm.
Gaylyn:
But all of these things take time because change is hard. Mm-Hmm. . There are always gonna be people who are gonna push back and resist, but, you know, we get one policy win after another and soon they add up to real change.
Jessica:
Period.
Kiara
What she said.
Jessica:
These conversations about the pay gap between these two shows and also like in almost all the shows, um, is happening 10, 20 years, like after the fact. Do you think we've seen a shift in demands for these conversations since the nineties?
Gaylynn:
I mean, I do, but then again, I talk about equal pay all the time. But I do think that it's part of the cultural conversation now a little bit more, I mean, a lot more probably than it was in the nineties. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . I never heard my mom talking about pay equity. Mm-Hmm. . Right. I mean, she talked about a lot of stuff , but, but that wasn't one of them. Right. And so I do think that there's much more emphasis now on understanding that women of color in particular face different obstacles at work than white women.
Gaylynn:
I mean, I think that there are people now who are looking at it from a broader economic perspective. It's not just a women's issue. Mm-Hmm. . But it's a, it's about, um, economic security for families and for communities. I really feel we don't talk about community piece enough. Mm-Hmm. because Black people invest in their communities. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And so if you don't have that money to invest, it's not just like you're not investing in yourself, but you also don't have the capacity to invest in your community.
Kiara:
That's right.
Gaylynn
By opening businesses.
That's right.
Gaylynn:
By, you know, caring for other people. It's just the informal economy, you know, also suffers. That's, and so that, and I think that maybe it's more true for immigrant communities, black communities, communities of color. Mm-Hmm. . Um, but we don't talk about that enough. No. Mm-Hmm.
Jessica:
. Why do y'all think that living single is an important piece of media? Not just for Black people to consume, but also non-black people.
Kiara:
.
Gaylynn:
I need a minute.
Kiara:
.
Jessica:
'cause clearly like talking to my mom, mom, talking with Lark and talking to y'all. Mm-Hmm. Living Single was marketed as the Black friends, even before Friends was Friends. Mm-Hmm. And even now, it was like the, like for Black people. for Black folks who just friends, it's for everybody. Mm-Hmm. . And in, in theory. Interesting. Yeah. But then I'm watching Friends and I'm like, I can't relate to these people at all.
Kiara:
One is like, just so we're clear, if Barack Obama is your only reference for Black people doing well, and, and there are a lot of people who, for for whom? That is like the marker of Oh, this is like when they got I right. No, Black people were thriving. Mm-Hmm. long before that. Mm-Hmm. . And so if, uh, if for anything that you need reference , like, I think that is why. But beyond that, I think it's like anthropological, like it's like a very, um, what we were saying, what we were wearing, how we were wearing our hair. Okay. The dooby. Okay. All of Regine’s wigs. Right. The locks or whatever. Like a time capsule of kinda like, this is what, what life was like. If you had to describe what was like nineties culture. It's like that to like the five seasons of that show is like, it is that, um, and that is why I think everyone should watch it. 'cause you should know. Yeah. Like what was happening before, you know, you were paying attention or you got here. That's my answer. , what do you think?
Gaylynn:
Well, ,
Kiara:
She's like slightly different, slightly different,
Gaylynn:
You know? No, I do think it's important for everybody to watch these shows, right? Mm-Hmm. For all the reasons that you just said, but there's also a part of me that's like, but this show is for us
Jessica:
I guess my assertion or the reason I'm asking this question is like, I feel like you can't say, oh, I love sitcoms and you haven't watched Living Single Mm-Hmm. Like, I think if you're an active pursuer, like, of watching tv, like watching media, like if someone doesn't watch tv, I'm not gonna say the first and they're white, the first thing is I'm gonna say, is not gonna say watch Living Single, but if you are an active media consumer Mm-Hmm.
Kiara:
. It's like you haven't seen Living Single. Like what are you consuming?
Jessica:
Exactly.
Kiara:
To your point, if you are a consumer of media, if you're a consumer of sitcoms, you have seen Living Single because it is a critical part of like media history and legacy and like was the influencer for all the shows that came after. So you haven't seen it, like, you haven't really seen anything.
Jessica:
And going off of that, you're saying like you're saying it is everything. It is a culmination of our culture. Yes. So what do you think needs to happen for Black women and Black people to get the credit and the money that they deserve for all that we have contributed to culture and the economy and the world?
Gaylynn:
Girl if we had the answer,
Kiara:
I'm like, really?
Jessica:
I said, what do you think? What do you think? Like where do we, where do we start? What do y'all, when y'all are having these conversations?
Kiara:
The challenge, I think, in what's happening right now in the media landscape as you are well aware is right, you have a very few companies and a very few very rich people buying up everything. And so independent media is very scarce and very few and far in between. And what was once Black-owned media is not even Black-owned anymore. Mm-Hmm. And like, right. There's so many different layers there.
Gaylynn:
I still feel like whenever Black people are doing something that's Black, right, it's about . Right.
Kiara:
You almost said black, black.
Gaylynn:
It's like people are taking a chance on us. Mm. But I'm like, we're running pop culture
Kiara:
Period. , like, that's it.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Gaylynn:
So I, the mindset is really weird.
Kiara:
What is, what does my mother say? They want all of our rhythm and none of our blues. Okay. Like everybody wants to be Black until it's time to be Black.
Jessica:
Thank y'all so much for being here.
Kiara:
Oh, Thank you for having us
Gaylynn:
This was great . It was awesome. I'm gonna go home and watch some more Living Single.
Kiara:
Lemme go cue up my Hulu as soon as I get in the house
CREDITS:
Hearsay is a Wonder Media Network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis and Hilary Woodward. Our producers are Adesuwa Agbonile, Grace Lynch, and Taylor Williamson. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer, and Maddy Foley is our editor. Production assistance by Luci Jones and show art by Andrea Sumner.
BLOOPER
Kiara:
Before I answer your question, can we just park there for a moment? Were you into friends? Just honestly, you don't have to be.
Gaylynn:
Here's what I'll tell you. . Okay.
Kiara:
Because this is what I wanna know.
Gaylynn:
Friends Is always on television.
Kiara:
Always.
Jessica:
It is. Mm-Hmm.
Gaylynn:
Yeah. You can't avoid it.
Kiara:
I, I don't understand why though.
Gaylynn:
It's like I know more about Friends than I want to. It's like how I know so much about Kim Kardashian's life.
Kiara:
No. That's a, yes. That's what it is.