Romance as a genre has been historically dismissed as unserious, very likely because women make up its core audience. But it’s always been popular and lucrative. Romance has also been at the forefront of inclusive fiction and driving social change. With our guests, Tia Williams, an acclaimed author, and Kelsey Grimes, a reproductive rights lawyer at NWLC, we unpack the genre and how it’s inextricably linked to conversations about contraception, abortion, and freedom.
Romance as a genre has been historically dismissed as unserious, very likely because women make up its core audience. But it’s always been popular and lucrative. Romance has also been at the forefront of inclusive fiction and driving social change. With our guests, Tia Williams, an acclaimed author, and Kelsey Grimes, a reproductive rights lawyer at NWLC, we unpack the genre and how it’s inextricably linked to conversations about contraception, abortion, and freedom.
We’ve got romance recommendations for you!
Tia’s rec: This Could Be Us by Kennedy Ryan
Kelsey’s rec: Any book by Courtney Milan
Hilary’s rec: The Hating Game by Sally Thorne and for historical, A League of Extraordinary Women series by Evie Dunmore
Jessica’s rec: Act Your Age, Even Brown by Talia Hibbert
Jessica:
Hi, I'm Jessica.
Lark:
And I'm Lark.
Hilary:
And I'm Hilary. And welcome to Hearsay where we deep dive into the cultural moments that live rent-free in our heads and probably yours too. And today we're gonna live happily ever after.
Lark:
Yes, we are.
Hilary:
That's right. We're talking about romance. And when we say romance, we mean the entire genre. We're talking about the most profitable genre in book publishing. We're talking about a genre that is having a moment, but basically has always been having a moment. Romance is often dismissed and disregarded because its readership and its authors are primarily women.
Lark:
Shocker.
Hilary:
So I'd love to know if either of you are romance readers and it's okay. Let's just say that first and foremost, .
Lark:
Um, yes, I am a reformed romance hater. The internalized misogyny got me. Um, I was very much like a, not even a, like I only need to read serious books, but I just, yeah. I thought they were silly. I thought they were frivolous. I didn't think there was purpose to them, which is such a based take bleep that out, . Um, because it's so great. Like it's, once I finally got over that, it was kind of like in, um, when I was in high school, I convinced myself I didn't cry in public. Like I didn't cry over things. Um, wrong, wrong. And then you get over that and you're like, wow, this feels really good to just cry whenever you wanna cry. It feels really good to just read a book about love that you want to read. Yeah. That makes you feel good. So I, yeah, I'm reformed. I feel like BookTok really helped me dive a little deeper and like publicly claim romance, um, and learn what the genre is actually about and not just letting the haters fill in my brain over what I thought it was about. So yeah, I generally lean towards like, scary. I was telling Hilary like murder, marriage murder thriller books are my jam
Jessica:
Oh that's amazing.
Hilary:
We’re not here to judge Lark. We love whatever you love
Lark:
You said safe space and I'm going with it. Um, but I definitely have found a soft spot for romance. Especially like in the summer. There's nothing better than like reading a romance book at the beach or like main character energy on a plane or train, any public transit reading like a romance book and just living your best life through the characters.
Jessica:
I love the unplugged time I have when I read. Where I'm like, I am not on my phone. I am unplugged. I am off the grid. I am immersed in this other thing. Mm-Hmm. . Um, which I really did not experience, I feel like until 2021. It was like my junior year of college. Mm-Hmm. . And I had been trying to read like, I I love a memoir. Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Oh, in high school I realized I loved memoirs. I read a lot of like YA books, like Perks of Being A Wallflower. Fault In Our Stars was my
Hilary:
Sure. Wow. Yes.
Jessica:
Cue the picture that I'm not gonna give, give y'all a meet at the Fault in Our Stars movie Premiere at 13.
Hilary:
Can we please post this
Jessica:
Never.
Lark:
We'll link in the show notes. Just kidding. .
Jessica:
But I read the book obviously before 'cause all cool kids read the book.
Lark:
Correct.
Jessica
Um, and then when I realized that adult romance is basically just grown up YA, I was like, okay. Period. Um, and I have Miss Talia Hibbert to thank for that. I love her. She is a Black British author for those of you who don't know. So all of her books center around like mid plus size black women Mm-Hmm. in the UK dating, finding love and like, it's not, they talk about their identity, but it's not like a, there's no, it's not trauma porn. Because they're black. Right. They are just black women. And they deal with insecurity, love of being like, yeah, I'm not skinny and I'm black. So these things in addition to whatever obstacle each of them is overcoming Mm-Hmm. . And then they just have love and it's not, not non non-racist, just anti-racist.
Lark:
What a concept
Jessica:
Just beautiful, happy fluffy. Will say spicy though. Love. Um, and so ever since I've, and it's the best kind, it's the best kind . Um, and it had these cute little books and I had a conversation a few weeks ago, someone was asking me like, what I like to do, and I was like, well, I like to read. And he was like, why do you like to read? And I was like, romance books. And he was like, oh. So like the ones with like shirtless men on the cover. And I was like, I mean, sure, but also like, they don't really be doing that like that anymore
Hilary:
They stop marketing that way.
Jessica:
And he was like, but isn't it basically the same thing? I was like, yeah, it's the same thing. And I don't mind saying that it's the same thing.
Lark:
Right. What are you trying to get me to say?
Jessica:
Yeah. But like, usually it's a cute little drawing, but it's the same. I don't know. I was a little taken aback by that. I was like, and I feel like it was supposed to be Ha ha ha. And I was like, ha ha.
Hilary:
What you were sort of hinting at Jessica, which definitely still exists, is like the stigma around reading romance is like deep and internalized,
Jessica:
Which I didn't know until you talk to me about it to be completely honest.
Hilary:
Well, that's awesome. First of all, that’s great.
Jessica:
I kind of did, but like I was like, okay, whatever like I'm reading. Are you reading? I didn't think so.
Lark:
That's how everyone’s attitude should be. .
Hilary:
Well that's honestly what I, and I, that's what made me go public with reading romance, even though I was reading it for years before, is that if I didn't put it on Good Reads then it looked like I was reading less than all my friends. And that was really annoying to me.
Lark:
Get that up there.
Hilary:
Because I'm so competitive that I was like, I could read 60 books a year, but only if half of them are romance. Because romance books, um, are better and easier to read . Because they're written for your pleasure instead of your pain. And that's, that's like a good thing. So anyway, I, yeah, I definitely, my like, romance bit of it is that I judged it like everyone does. Um, like I had to hide that I had ever seen them and you know, in some ways they become kind of their own sex education when you're young and like that is for girls so like, that's something. But, um, a a couple years ago I was talking to a friend who's always been like, maybe not fully to the world, but at least to our friend group, very much like a romance reader. Mm-Hmm. , like everyone knew she's gone to conventions. She's designed romance book covers, which is like a fun thing. She's very cool. Finally, she was like, if you want recommendations, and I was like, fine, I'll try . Like, I was like ready to try. And the book that she gave me, and she must know something about my psychology more than I knew myself even is, um, the Hating Game by Sally Thorne, which has since been made into it kind of not great movie, but the, um, it, you know, it's Enemies to Lovers and it's also an office romance. I just loved it. Even now, like rereading it, I, um, there's parts I can pick up apart. And be like, oh, this part annoys me. But something about like that first romance that like sucks you in that is yours and you're gonna just love it forever. There was so much banter, there was so much tension. I just loved it.
Lark:
The tension is really what I love. Like I love that's a slow burn. A bubbling underneath the surface.
Hilary:
You can't help it.
Jessica:
Slow burns. Slow burns hurt me. I'm getting better. It was like when I was, this is not a reading romance, but watching Bridgerton season two was such a slow burn. And I was literally like, when I first watched it, I was like, Ooh.
Hilary:
A lot of looks
Jessica:
I was like please
Hilary:
I know
Jessica:
And Im talking about Abbot Elementary right now too.
Lark:
Slow burn.
Hilary:
Everything's a romance by the way.
Lark:
Yeah. Everything is a romance
Jessica:
And that's not a bad thing. There was some, it was a song Fast Car by Tracy Chapman. . People were talking about like, oh, it's such a beautiful love song.
Hilary:
Oh no.
Jessica:
And then some people were like, it's more than just a love song, this side and the other. And I'm like, I agree that there are so many layers about queerness, identity, poverty. Like it is not simply just a love song, but also saying that is a love song does not take away all of those other things.
Lark:
Correct.
Hilary:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica:
Like love is in everything and saying that it is romantic saying that it is love does not take away the legitimacy
Lark:
Doesn't make it light, doesn't make it..
Jessica:
And it goes, goes back to the whole stigma thing that we were talking about. Movies about like romantic movies or movies that have love are not illegitimate, are not unserious. Mm-Hmm. . So anyway, that's my rant. Love is radical and revolutionary
Hilary:
Romance is in everything. And um, I think that I've gotten so much value out of being open to whatever is in front of me through the books. Like, maybe the story isn't exactly my trope or my specific preference, but that the stories are always beautiful or I get something or I learn something and I'm reading and like that actually that reading has such value.
Lark:
like the finding joy in something that's not about myself or not super related is like relieving and also fun to explore. I'm in my head and in my life all the time. And like our work is not always super cheerful. And so it's nice to, and not that romance is always super cheerful, but to explore a world that is typically a lot more dramatic than my life and love life for sure. It's so fun to explore that.
Hilary:
So obviously we could talk about romance forever. Um, but I wanted to have a conversation with some experts, uh, in the field
Lark:
Some exciting experts.
Hilary:
Yeah. Very exciting. Um, like let's keep it together exciting, but
Jessica:
I can't
Lark:
I would not have been to
Jessica:
You want me to calm down? Never
Hilary:
So the first, um, is one of our colleagues, Kelsey Grimes, who's this like very cool person who works on our reproductive rights and health team and, but is also a big romance reader and a member of a romance book club here in DC. And a thoughtful person
Lark:
An iconic book club.
Hilary:
Yeah. And so I think she'll have some thoughts about kind of intersections between romance, um, gender equality and like specifically abortion access and contraception, which are the things she works on. Um, And then 'cause that conversation wouldn't be enough. We are also gonna bring in Tia Williams.
Lark:
. Ahhh I know. So excited.
Hilary:
You just hurt people's ears.
Jessica:
Good. If you aren’t this excited and you're a romance reader, I need you to buck up. I need you to stack up.
Hilary:
So Tia Williams is this incredible author. Her most recent book is A Love Song for Ricki Wilde, which is beautiful. It takes place in Harlem then and now. And, um, Seven Days in June, this incredible romance.
Jessica:
So good. It's like one of the best romance, I think one of my favorite romance books of all time.
Hilary:
Yeah. I loved it. She's also the author of The Perfect Find, which is a Netflix movie with Gabrielle Union. I haven't seen it yet. I'd like to, I have read it.
Jessica:
I need to see that.
Hilary:
Yeah. On our list. Um, and she was a beauty editor, um, like a fashion beauty editor for like 15 years before her writing career. So she's got some stories, um, that I can't wait to hear.
Hilary:
Today, I'm so lucky to be joined by Tia Williams and Kelsey Grimes. Tia is a bestselling author of several amazing books, including Seven Days in June, which was a New York Times and USA Today bestseller and a Reese's Book Club pick and is gonna be a TV series, which is awesome. And I'm excited for. And she's, uh, joining us fresh from a tour around the country to celebrate the release of her new novel, A Love Song for Ricki Wilde, which I adored. and Kelsey Grimes works with me at the National Women's Law Center. She's a lawyer on our reproductive rights and health team where she leads our state birth control work. She's also an abortion doula, a master gardener, and a member of Really Reading Romance, which is a romance novel book club hosted by East City Books in Washington, DC. So welcome to both of you. Thanks for being here.
Tia:
Thank you. I'm so excited to talk to you guys about romance.
Kelsey:
Same.
Hilary:
I'd love to start, I feel like everybody has a romance origin story, how they come to romance. Some of those stories are older. So I'd love to ask each of you what yours is. How did you come to romance as, as a reader or a writer? And, uh, Tia, why don't you go first?
Tia:
So I grew up in the eighties, uh, with a mom who was very into those romance paperbacks with the clinch covers and, you know, the whole, the Fabio of it all. Um, and she used to keep them in, um, my parents' bedroom next to the bathtub all stacked up. And they were always really like enlarged because of the steam in the bathroom because of the bathtub. And my sisters and I would read them and they would open right up to the sex scenes, which was always interesting. Um, but I've loved romances ever since then. I was sort of raised on them. Um, and then also like the glamour fiction world of Jackie Collins and Judith Krantz and, some Daniel Steele. So yeah, that's what I grew up reading and I that's what I always wanted to write.
Hilary:
And how about you Kelsey?
Kelsey:
My intro into the genre is so weird because I'm a former evangelical Christian , so my whole family is really, except for me. So basically any, any topics around like sex and sexuality were really taboo. But then I, I went to college and I was in Indonesia, um, interviewing genocide survivors. Um, and it was really, really heavy in that I was like, oh my gosh, this is like exhausting for me and them, and just a really heavy experience. And they had like a little tiny library, um, in the host family where I was staying and I was like, oh, what's this cover? It was like a classic clinch cover and I wanted something light. And what I picked up was a bodice ripper , which is like bodice rippers are like big epic tales. And they're characterized by like drama and plot and often like extreme acts of violence against women. So like the book was not light, but it did its job of like, you know, distracting me and I was hooked because the plot was just incredible. There were like 50 books in that book.
Hilary:
And so you've kept reading.
Kelsey:
Kept reading ever since.
Hilary:
It feels to me like romance is having a moment and I can't tell if that's because I've come to romance or it is having a moment. And so I wanted to kind of ask both of you about that. You know, is that happening now and, and kind of why do we think that is?
Tia:
Well, I think romance has actually always been a thing. And what a lot of readers don't know is that, you know, for most traditional publishing houses, the romance genre is what keeps the light on. But the difference now is who's writing them and the, um, the subject matter is evolving. So whereas when we were young, it was very hetero love. It was very, the woman's a virgin and the man is defiling her. It was a woman finding her self-worth through a man and through sex and all of that. And today there are so many more diverse options, there's always this parameter of a romance has to be a happy ending, but the ways to get there are so much more diverse now than they were, um, when I was growing up.
Kelsey:
Yeah, I mean, on the happy ending piece, I always say that romance novels are like the weighted blankets of literature for me. It's like, you know, no matter what happens in the in the book, the characters will end up together at the end. And that's kind of lovely. I swear if I hear the phrase like, we're living in such uncertain times one more time, I just like, I don't need to be reminded of it , but we are, and I think that people really gravitate towards joy and hope and something to believe in. And romance is fundamentally a genre of, of hope and of joy. And I think that's why, why it's became so popular.
Hilary:
Yeah. It's hard for me not to see the like, uh, shades of stigma, given what romance is. And so do we think that has changed right now in this moment that the stigma is shifting for people? Tia have you noticed that as, as a writer, right? do you still have people kind of confess to you Like, you know, I can't believe I read this, but I really enjoyed it. That sort of thing.
Tia:
Yeah. I mean, so so often I hear, I don't really read romance, but I like this, or I see a review that's like, I, I have never read romance and I still don't think I'm a romance reader, but I love this. Like, there always has to be, you know, a qualifier and like an excuse. Like it's this shameful, embarrassing thing. And I also think that that's a part of the popularity of animated illustrated covers too. Mm-Hmm is that they're not so overtly sexy. I mean, some of the steamiest romance books out there right now have covers that look like, you know, their lifetime movies, you know, , um, almost like to throw people off. So I, I do think that the stigma is still there and even within like, the romance community, you know, are you writing the kind of book that just has like a man with abs on the cover? You know, like there's all sorts of stereotypes to be made based on the title or the cover and what that signifying, where it goes in the bookstore. Even my daughter the other day got, she's 15 and she got a, a book that she didn't realize was as spicy as it was, and then she was like, well, I can't read this at school, but I'm like, no one's gonna know like, what is in there? And she was like, no, I think some people, I I I just, I didn't realize when I saw the cover that it was gonna be that kind of book. And if anyone else realizes that, I'll be so embarrassed. So I think it's still there.
Kelsey:
Yeah, I mean, just yesterday on I guess X formerly Twitter, whatever calling it these days, there was some, some woman, like a young woman who's just a reader and she sent a, she posted a picture of her bookshelf because she liked her illustrations and it had a bunch of romance novels on it. And also like some erotic art people were dragging her saying like, oh, you can tell, like, you're not a real reader, you're not a real like this or that because you really like the genre. But I really think that has a lot to do with like a) sex being very stigmatized and romance is like, yes, a genre of hope, but it also is reflective of the society in which we live in a lot of ways. Um, and also b) like the devaluing of, of women's work. And I think that emotional growth and like emotional management as well as like tending to interpersonal relationships still in many ways is viewed as women's work and it's really devalued as a result.
Hilary:
So Tia, before you were talking about, how inclusive romance is, which is something I noticed kind of out of the gate in reading it and really realize, realizing that there's a genre for everybody, right? Like you can find yourself in every book. Um, and that has been amazing as a reader. And so I'd love to talk about maybe that shift toward inclusivity. Has it always been that way? And why now and then kind of as a follow up to that, do either of you think there are stories that we haven't told yet? You know, ways we could be even more inclusive.
Tia:
No, it has not always been like this at all. Like this is an extremely recent development and I cannot stress that enough. It was really hard to get a foot in the door. And I say this as a person who my first novel was published in 2004, you know, sort of in the height of the Chiclet era. Mm-Hmm. . And I wasn't really encouraged to have a brown skin woman on the cover. We cast a light-skinned Latina for the cover and then didn't even shoot her. We just shot her foot in a shoe. And even in 2016 when my, uh, novel The Perfect Find, my agent was shopping it around, it was rejected by every publisher, every traditional publisher in New York. And what I kept hearing was, okay, so this is a love story about a Black woman who is a fashion editor. Love it. So fun, so juicy, sexy. Can we make it a different industry? Because I think readers will have a hard time imagining a Black woman as a fashion editor, or if you're gonna leave it as she's a fashion editor, can you talk more about her struggles as a Black woman working in, you know, such a white industry. Everyone rejected it and I published it through a very small indie publisher. Three years, four years later, Me Too happens, Trump happens, George Floyd happens. You know, tides have shifted and suddenly these very monochromatic publishers wanna hear from Black voices, they wanna hear from diverse voices. And the jury's still out on whether or not any of it was, um, coming from an authentic place because a lot of the promises that were made, you know, have been broken. But there was this surge of, yeah, let's, let's let in these diverse voices, which is so exciting. And now there's so many choices in romance, but then there's a whole other conversation about how it takes more than just signing, you know, a trans woman author, are you putting marketing dollars behind this Black romance writer? Where are they in the bookstore? Are they getting any advertising? So that's a whole other conversation. But yeah, the tides turned when American culture turned.
Hilary:
Talking about representation, one of the things you chose to include in Seven Days in June was that your protagonist Eva has migraines. could you talk about the decision to include Eva's, migraines as part of the book and, and also kind of what impact you felt it's had for readers?
Tia:
Yeah, well I've had chronic daily migraines since I was nine years old, which, you know, it's an invisible disease. Invisible meaning I don't look sick, whatever that's supposed to look like, which is really hard for people who, who struggle with chronic pain that isn't visible because you look like you can handle, you know, quote unquote normal life. But every breath is heavy lifting. And when I was writing seventies in June, it was a bad time. I was in and outta the hospital and I just wanted to see my experience reflected in a story where a woman got to have a happy ending and have true love and have this really sexy relationship and have a good time. So I gave her migraines, I made her a single mom, which I was at the time, and I sort of made her my doppelganger who gets it right. And through that, so many people, this character that I really wrote for myself, so many people, it resonated with them because, you know, for the same reason I wrote her, it's the reason people needed to read her.
Hilary:
Right. If it, if it doesn't exist in the world, you can write it in romance and it has a place and it has value by doing so. Um, it's beautiful. So Kelsey, one thing I wanted to ask you. In your work at the law center, you obviously advocate for abortion and birth control access and uh, it's sort of funny, but conversations about romance are often not about abortion and birth control or even reproductive health, right. Even though it's, it's a book with sex , right, exactly. Like open door or closed Door, but it's there , knowing your work, how when you pick up a book, what are you looking for and, and what do you notice, what do you wish still happened, in romance more that would further the work that you do?
Kelsey:
I mean, my, my job is kind of about sex, but like even in the field, it's not..
Hilary:
We never talk about it that way.
Kelsey:
We never talk about it that way. Yeah. Which is so ridiculous. I mean, we always talk about, you know, yeah, it allows like birth control allows you to like space out your pregnancies and blah, blah blah. And that is true. But for many, many people it also allows you to have sex for fun without fear of like getting pregnant. And for me, as someone who's like a former evangelical, I mean I was taught growing up, obviously no sex before marriage, but then when you are married to a man, of course you are supposed to just like have sex whenever he wants, like regardless of what you want. And so for me, um, reading romance novels, I was presented with this like quite radical idea. Like, oh, you can just have sex for pleasure and like if you do a trap door won't open up underneath you and like you shan't be falling straight to hell. You know, like you can have sex for fun and like still have a happy ending and like still live your life.
Hilary
I feel like in the books I've been reading lately too, that consent has been so much more present and obviously, you know, the condom wrapper appears far more than it used to, uh, again as a new new-ish in the long history of romance reader. Is that true? Is that kind of also a change that's happened lately?
Kelsey:
I feel like in, in early romance novels, like in in say like the seventies or or even eighties, there was like, there were a lot of bodice rippers and bodice rippers do have lots of like violence against women. There's like sexual assault also many times in those novels the woman is like, oh, I don't mean to be enjoying this, but like, I don't have a choice. And I really feel like when those books came out in, in a way I feel like it, it allowed people to have like, have pleasurable sex on page because it was like kind of against their will during a time that's like just after the sexual revolution. So I feel like those two things are like related for me. Now as we've gone on, I mean sex of course is still stigmatized, but like less so, less so than it was. Um, and so I do think you see more discussions of like consent on page or like birth control methods or, um, I don't know, even like negotiations of what you want to happen.
Tia:
It's definitely a, a newer thing. You're absolutely right. I mean, again, from personal experience, I didn't write a condom till 2016 because I was kind of told, the messaging was that it wasn't sexy in romance,
Hilary:
Right. It would take, take you out of the book.
Tia:
It takes you out of it. And honestly as a writer, like it, what you should demand in real life is not always the fantasy. I always include it, but I still struggle with how to keep up the sexy momentum with a, Hey, are we doing this? enthusiastic yes.
Kelsey:
Well also, I mean a lot of historical, historical romance novels even sometimes discuss like birth control use oe even like older abortion methods. So people have been having sex since like the dawn of time, , like there have always like been abortions and like always been birth control. And those things are related to romance too.
Hilary:
And the fantasy of a happy life for most people who can get pregnant includes birth control and abortion.
Kelsey:
Right. At some point.
Hilary:
Yeah. That's how you, you get that life in the first place. So we've talked a couple times about, uh, romance typically having a happy ever after the whole genre, but specifically because of the Happily Ever After is dismissed because it's wish fulfillment, as if that's a negative thing. And so I I'd like to ask both of you about kind of what is the power of a happily ever after, what do we, what are we giving readers, but what is romance um because of that giving society?
Tia:
I was on a panel recently with a female writer who is not a romance writer. And so this was the first time she was hearing that that was, you know, the romance genre means business about the HEA. Like it is not a romance if it isn't a hap, if there isn't a Happily ever after. And she was like, who decides what a happily ever after is? And I had actually never thought of that. Um, she was like, is is the protagonist choosing herself not a happily ever after? I'm totally on the spot on this panel, I'm like representing an entire genre . And I was like, uh, no, yes, no, and yes, um, Because yes, that that should be a happily ever, ever after. But within the confines of what the romance genre is today, it's a love relationship, whether that's two people, whether it's a throuple, whether it's a poly situation, and they all have to walk off the final page having chosen each other. Um, and I think if you want to read a book about a main character who chooses to be in love with themselves, the way things stand today that is not romance, which is something I take issue with, um, because I think you can still have a great love or several great loves, but your greatest love can still be you. And how is that not romance? Yeah. Um, I, you know, and I'm I'm deeply of my religion is your, you find soulmates everywhere. You know, your iguana could be your soulmate, you know, your work wife is another soulmate. Um, in A Love Song for Ricki Wilde. Um, Ricki is kind of escapes her family and moves to this place that she doesn't know anyone and doesn't, she no longer has her family. So she has found family and you know, she falls in love with Ezra, but she finds two other great platonic loves in a grandmother figure and a best friend's sister figure. So, um, I wish the parameters would expand a bit and yeah, that is the eternal question. Who decides what the happily ever after even is?
Kelsey:
I, I feel like the power of the HEA is just so that people, whoever you are, you, you should be able to see yourself in a happy ending and see what that looks like in a romance novel. I mean, especially on a bit of a tangent, but like, as a, as a queer woman also for many, many years, queer love stories like one or both people died like every time. Yeah. And you only punished, got sad stories. Yeah. You're like punished for being. You're punished for having sex or, or whatever. And now, you know, queer people like myself or like younger people, people can pick up a book and like see, you know, see hope, like see the characters like going on to be happy together and like not, not dead on page. .
Hilary:
Yeah. I think there's another piece for me about, I know so much about the systems that are in women's way. Our childcare system, our lack of paid family leave are, uh, ever stripped away, uh, rights to our bodies and to, to abortion. And these systems are against us. And so an entire genre exists that imagines if that weren't true, you know, or or grapples with it, but comes out the other side like of course it exists, of course women write it and of course women read it primarily because if we can't control, you know, if a state legislature is gonna take away our right to an abortion, like we should have it somewhere else and, and make that world for ourselves and show what it could look like. So before we wrap up, uh, romance readers always have recommendations. So is there something you'd each wanna recommend to our hearsay audience?
Tia:
Um, I would love to recommend This Could Be Us by Kennedy Ryan, who is a friend, yes. But also a genius, genius author. It's her new one and it has a lot to do with what I, I was kind of just talking about, you know, a woman who is going through a journey towards self-love while also falling in love, um, with a partner. So it's very multi-layered and yeah, it's beautiful.
Kelsey:
I think I'd recommend Courtney Milan. Um, she, yeah, I'm obsessed with her.
Tia:
She's so good.
Kelsey:
I really, really like her. Um, but yeah, so she is, she's Chinese American. She's a former Supreme Court clerk. Um, and she's also just like an all around badass. Was active in the Me Too movement and she writes a good story. So good. And also this is my like, personal joy, but the characters often resolve conflict by like calmly communicating to each other, , which I, I know it's very low drama, but I, I love to see it and it's like
Hilary:
deeply satisfying .
Kelsey:
Not only is it satisfying, I'm like, ah, this is healing me like reading this book.
Hilary:
Awesome. Well this has been wonderful. Thank you both so much for, for talking about romance with me. Um, and, and for sharing with our listeners.
This was our last episode of season 1 of Hearsay. Thank you so much for listening us and joining us so far. We’ll be back for season 2 this summer. If you’ve got any ideas for episodes or things you’d like to hear us talk about, feel free to find us on social or email us at hearsay@nwlc.org and we’ll see you real soon!
CREDITS:
Hearsay is a Wonder Media network production and partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted and produced by Jessica Bas, Lark Lewis and Hilary Woodward. Our producers are Adesuwa Agbonile, Grace Lynch and Taylor Williamson. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer and Maddy Foley is our editor. Production assistance by Luci Jones and show art by Andrea Sumner.
BLOOPER:
Jessica:
My mom, I mean her, her 50 Shades. Well, I've tried to, I got bored.
Hilary:
Oh, her copy of it. I thought you meant for a second you read it out loud to her and I was like,
Jessica:
oh, I read it to, oh my God,
Lark:
The trauma. We'd have to cut the cameras if that was what you actually meant
Jessica:
I read her copy.