With the SAG-AFTRA and Writers’ Guild of America strikes, 2023 was the year of the union. While the media buzzed about the solidarity and popularity of unions, we have known for a while that unions have always been beneficial for all workers, but especially women workers. What caused the resurgence in support for unions? How do unions play a major role in the fight for equal pay? Why should you seek unionized workplaces when job searching? We talked with Liz Schuler and Jesica Bush about the importance of unions in creating workplaces that at minimum keep us safe and at maximum allow us to thrive.
With the SAG-AFTRA and Writers’ Guild of America strikes, 2023 was the year of the union. While the media buzzed about the solidarity and popularity of unions, we have known for a while that unions have always been beneficial for all workers, but especially women workers. What caused the resurgence in support for unions? How do unions play a major role in the fight for equal pay? Why should you seek unionized workplaces when job searching? We talked with Liz Schuler and Jesica Bush about the importance of unions in creating workplaces that at minimum keep us safe and at maximum allow us to thrive.
Resources:
Hilary:
Hi, I'm Hilary.
Lark:
I'm Lark.
Jessica:
And I'm Jessica. And welcome to Hearsay where we deep dive into the cultural moments that live rent free in our heads and probably yours too. And today we are basking in Union Girl Summer. We are talking about unions, which have had a resurgence in pop culture over the last few years, um, and talking about why they're good for everyone, but especially women. I'm gonna start by asking Hillary, Lark, what are y'all's experiences with unions?
Lark:
Hilary, I feel like you have a very robust union career.
Hilary:
Well, but I'm the only non-Union member. I'm, I'm management.
Lark and Jessica:
Booo
Hilary:
I know, I know.
Lark:
Just kidding.
Hilary:
I know.
Lark:
So unheard of these days. Cause you can’t
Hilary:
I know, it's, I know my dad.. No, no. And I've always been accused of job jumping. I've been at the law center for eight years,
Lark:
Which is wild because it’s, it's a huge part of your personality.
Hilary:
It is.
Jessica:
I'm still waiting on Hillary and Lark to take me to their box seats.
Hilary:
Oh, well, Lark has box seats. I don't.
Lark:
Yes I do. Come through.
Hilary:
I sit with the people. But after the national championship game in 2022, right? In 2022, the US Women's National team came to that game and signed their collective bargaining agreement with US soccer on the field. And there was the sign up on the field, um, after the game, which was a wonderful game. They held up a sign that said, stay tuned for the collective bargain bargaining agreement signing. And I was like, this is my dream come true
Lark:
And people stayed. I cried. I was there.
Hilary:
Oh my God.
Lark:
It was, it was magical
Hilary:
Filming the whole thing.
Lark:
And at like, I don't wanna say everyone stayed, but like everyone had been invested with them in that fight, and that was, I'm sure incredible to see. Yeah.
Hilary:
But I, I was gonna say unions are having a moment, but that's also been true at the law center while working here. You all have joined and formed a union.
Lark:
Woo hoo.
Hilary:
And I've gotten to be, uh, on the other side of it, but also just thrilled at at what it's meant for, for everyone here. So I, I know that's part of your experiences too.
Lark:
Yeah, I mean, I can jump in. I, uh, we officially unionized shortly after I started and I got to be, um, on the bargaining committee while we were working on our first collective bargaining agreement. And for those of you that may not be super versed in unions, um, your collective bargaining agreement is basically the piece of paper and contract between the union and the management of like, what's going to happen that most cases your union has pushed for better policies for everyone. Mm-Hmm.
Um, so there was obviously a lot of urgent things we had top of mind, but also had to think long term. Right? We knew this, uh, first CBA was gonna be for a couple of years. Um, but even in all of that kind of uncertainty and stress, just seeing everyone really, I mean we have a really union friendly workplace as you can imagine, whether you're in the unit officially or not. Um, but seeing everyone collectively come together in solidarity, in support of each other, understanding that even if something doesn't directly impact me, it's for the good of the order and the good of everyone. And I think that, at least for me, is what always fires me up in these pop culture moments. You know, when I see a big union president on tv, like outside the workplace, outside the man, like yelling like that gives me goosebumps and is just so cool.
And I think we're at a point, and we have been for the past couple years where people are fed the up of like, shit is bad. Right? Wages are stagnant. Like right, no one's happy.
Jessica:
Inflation is crazy.
Lark:
Democracy's crumbling. Yeah. Like it's all bad, but we can make it a little less bad if we band together and fight for all of these things, um, in this like capitalist hell that we live in. Um, and there's so much power in that. We've seen that, um, especially in the past couple hot union summers, um, of just collective power and being able to kind of overtake some of those things in our lives that seem insurmountable or seem like you can't fix them. But with a union sometimes you can.
Jessica:
We are gonna talk about all of the pop culture references,
Hilary:
Pop culture.
Jessica:
Because
Lark:
Plot twist, they're all bad.
Jessica:
Yeah.
Lark:
Except Madagascar.
Jessica:
No, I still think it was tough. Yeah. I was saying the most niche one I could come up with was Madagascar 2. Hilary. I don't know. It came out like 2008.
Lark:
It's kind of a sleeper like movie, but it is, I would say the, it's like Shrek 2, Shrek 2 is better than Shrek 1.
Jessica:
That's so true.
Hilary:
I think I have seen Shrek 2
Lark:
And the best one.
Hilary:
I’ve definitely never, never seen a Madagascar.
Lark:
Oh, my whole family saw all of them in theaters.
Jessica:
You have to show your kids Madagascar.
Hilary:
I really dislike animated films.
Lark:
That's fair. But this one is funny. It's like Shrek. It has like adult jokes.
Jessica:
But the whole thing is in Madagascar too. The whole reason that they end up in Madagascar is 'cause the plane breaks down and the penguins of Madagascar, which is also a sideshow
Hilary:
And it was like well depicted.
Lark:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica:
And they ended up, you know, negotiating and building a plane and being able to leave, but
Lark:
I totally forgot that.
Jessica:
Yeah. It was really funny. So I was like my most like niche flashback. But this is your resident SpongeBob Wikipedia expert here to tell you what the SpongeBob Union has an episode, which is also a good one.
Lark:
What is, there's the lines. Uh, what's the chant he has?
Jessica:
Krusty Krab is unfair. Mr Krabs is in there. Something it your oppression, and then it's like
Lark:
Krusty Krabs is unfair. Mr. Krabs is in there, standing at the concession, plotting his oppression.
Hilary:
That's good.
Jessica:
See I almost had, I had like 50 something percent of the way there, but it's really good. And they're like on strike and 'cause Mr. Krabs fires them for unionizing. Um, and Mr. Krabs and Squidward come to an agreement, uh, and then come back and see that Spongebob had destroyed the whole Krusty Krab. So then the union is no longer.
Hilary:
So like,
Jessica:
But Mr. Krabs is a scab.
Hilary:
Yeah. I feel like
Lark:
Do you have any good ones?
Hilary:
I doubt. Well there's like Norma Ray.
Lark:
Yeah. Obviously
Hilary:
Our Sally field.
Lark:
Incredible.
Hilary:
But that's a second Sally field too. From from. Mrs. Doubtfire.
Lark:
Sally Field Pod,
Hilary:
Yeah, she’s in all the key cultural movies. Um, I definitely watched it as a kid, but not since, um, there is like a very classic children's book union called Click Union book called Click Clack Moo.
Lark:
Oh, oh yes. Cow's that type.
Hilary:
Yeah. Yes, exactly.
Lark:
I loved that book.
Hilary:
Where the cows start to making demands.
Lark:
Oh my God. I didn’t realize that.
Hilary:
It's a very pro union book. And it's like if you're in certain like progressive circles with your, like your kids will get that book or you will give that book.
Jessica
That's so cute.
Lark:
I remember that book being read to us in library and me being like, I have to buy that book.
Hilary:
Yeah. The Cow is onto something.
Lark:
Yeah. And I feel like my parents probably did
Hilary:
No milk.
Lark:
Yeah. I know. It was, wow. I am just making that connection. Wow.
Jessica:
I don't think I read it.
Lark:
So some I'm sure my parents made that connection and I wasn't listening.
Hilary:
I think broadly part of the thing with unions is like, there, it's easy to come up with the jokes or like Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
Work hard.
Jessica:
You've always gotta look out for yourself. Protect yourself.
Hilary:
Right. Right. All these messages that kind of run counter to the like, maybe I will like come together and it'll be risky, but out of this like we'll have like, be able to shift like our power. Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
Permeate through.
Hilary:
All the trope didn't like Yeah. Yeah. Carry through. And that feels like the big victory that people are open to it. Mm-Hmm.
Jessica:
And I think it also kinda has to do with like the loneliness epidemic too. Realizing that like the importance of community. Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
But other unions have told us they crowdsource stuff off of our CBA and like some things we did lead the charge on and that's important to celebrate too.
Jessica:
Mm-Hmm.
Hilary:
What does a steward do? Tell the people
Jessica:
A steward. We, uh, represent, um, the interests of people in the unit. So if they have like, um, any sort of, yeah. So if lark's like Jessica, I have a problem, hey. I'll be like, okay Lark, let's talk about it. So I can sit in with people on meetings with management. I can help move things along, I can take notes. I can literally just be like a presence there. Like I basically facilitate mediate Mm-Hmm.
Lark:
And I think that's such a nice, you know, you brought up the loneliness epidemic. Like I remember my parents growing up saying like never crossed the picket line. You know, like telling us these things, but still saying you still may have risk. Right. You still could lose your job. You know, where other things could happen to you. And I feel like the collective power that that fear of the repercussions or the bad actions of bad management have lessened a little bit. Mm-Hmm.
Jessica:
Yeah. You giving yourself to work does not mean your work gives anything to you.
Lark:
Right. It is a job.
Jessica:
And realizing that is, especially if that was not your worldview is can be very like, very. sifficult. Um, but you have to realize it at some point. So we all have firsthand experience about why unions are good for women and they're good for everyone. Um, and that experience is amazing. We can brag about it.
Lark:
Mm-Hmm. Yeah. It feels good.
Jessica:
And we will brag about it
Lark:
Yeah I was screaming.
Jessica:
We had just ratified our CBA too. So collective bargaining agreement and everyone was having a blast. It was so fun. Um, but we have Liz and we have Jesica Bush who was a Union iron worker with Iron Workers Local 86.
Lark:
Shout out.
Jessica:
Yeah. Shout out union proud baby. Um, and they're both gonna, you know, I'm excited to see what they're going to say and um, how our conversation goes.
Lark:
It's gonna be so awesome.
Jessica:
Yeah. I'm excited.
INTERVIEW
Jessica:
I'm so thrilled to be here with two amazing guests. I have Liz Schuler here with me. She is the president of the AFLCIO and we also have Jesica Bush, who is a Union iron worker with iron Workers Local 86, who has also worked her way up to be a safety professional. Liz, Jesica, thank y'all so much for joining me.
Liz:
Hi Jessica. Thank you for having us.
Jessica:
So excited to be here with y'all. Um, and both of you to say that unions have been a big part of your lives would be the understatement of the century, I'm assuming. And so I would really like to know what your first experiences were when you realized that unions were crucial resources for an ideal work environment
Liz:
After you Jesica.
Jesica:
Okay. I joined the union in 2011, but I have been trying since 2009 and there was like a hiring freeze. That was when the economy and the world just kind of took a a down slide. So they were on a hiring freeze, but I didn't give up because I seen the potential, you know, I can't just go and apply for any job, bottom line. So I knew that I was making $11 an hour. I was a single mother. I had two kids and I was on a mission to provide for my family. And at that time when I joined the union, it was, um, I believe starting wage was $24. That was huge for me to be able to provide for my kids. And I knew how vital the union was for me in 2008 when I first learned about the trades. And I had been trying to get in since 2009 and made it 2011 and always knew no matter what life threw at me, I was two weeks away from a paycheck.
Jessica:
Yeah. I mean, so many people live paycheck to paycheck, but to have that extra certainty or that extra assurance, I'm sure is
Liz:
And Jesica, that's what they call the union difference because you know what it's like to work in an industry like construction, if you're not in a union, it's very precarious. You don't have that center of gravity of the Union Hall when a project ends to be able to go back and sign the books and get dispatched out to another job and have it be seamless and a place where you can get portable benefits, healthcare, retirement. Um, and the training and upskilling that you need, the union is the constant for folks in construction and especially for women like Jessica.
Jesica:
Absolutely.
Jessica:
For sure. And Liz, what about you? What was your first experience in understanding the importance of unions?
Liz:
Um, I was working what is now referred to as the gig economy, but back then we called it the McJob, where you're piecing together two and three jobs just to make ends meet. And, um, I grew up in a union household. Both my parents worked for the Electric Utility Company in our hometown of Portland, Oregon. And I had worked there also in payroll for a short time. And I had heard that the women clerical workers were trying to organize a union, whereas power linemen already were in the union. And so I wanted to be a part of that organizing campaign 'cause I saw firsthand what the difference was. You know, the, the power linemen had a union. They had sort of this swagger when they walked through the office, they knew they were gonna be listened to and respected. They could speak up without being afraid.
Whereas most of our, the office workers who were largely women, right, um, felt like this culture of you should be grateful to have what you have. You shouldn't necessarily feel empowered. And so this notion of forming the union was less about raising pay. Uh, it was more about the dignity, the respect, the ability to be seen and heard and have collective power by coming together. Now the company fought at the organizing drive with everything it had because they knew that it would be pretty powerful to have a, what they call wall to wall, uh, unit of union workers. So the campaign ultimately failed because they used fear and intimidation. They fired some people. They had captive audience meetings where they called everybody in the auditorium and told them why you shouldn't join a union. Um, and people are generally afraid to lose their jobs. Right.
It's a pretty risky proposition to form a union 'cause the laws are so broken. But throughout that campaign, it really lit a fire under me. And that's when I went to work for the union full time after that campaign because they knew they needed more women to be organizers if they were gonna be successful in organizing more office workers. And, uh, so they were really looking toward the future of how to grow the local union. And, um, you know, today we are organizing in numbers that we haven't seen in a very long time. And we are looking, uh, for opportunities for, you know, women and people of color and young people to get off the sidelines into these incredible opportunities for good union jobs. Um, and to have, uh, folks like Jesica be the ones who are taking advantage of these opportunities has become my life's work.
Jessica:
And you were talking about how we, you're seeing organizing numbers like you have not seen in a long time, which is part of the reason that we're doing this episode. 2023 was deemed to be the year of the union because there just seemed to be such an increased visibility. Um, but why do y'all think that we've seen such a resurgence and support for unions and more interest in unionizing?
Liz:
Absolutely. 2023 was the year of the union. And I think 2024 continues to be because we're in this moment of profound, I would say uncertainty and destabilization across the country. Um, a lot of disruption taking place within the world of work. Um, and people are fed up, right? They're fed up with the status quo. They want to know that they can actually be the change that they're looking for. And people are finally connecting those dots that, wow, okay, there's this thing called a union where I can come together with my coworkers and build power. The labor movement, as you've seen is, is surging in popularity. Um, I think the latest polls are like 71% of Americans support unions and 88% of young people under the age of 30 support unions because they see us out there fighting. Right. Um, whether it's actors, you know, going on strike against these multi-billion dollar studios who wanna replace them with ai, uh, and so they used their contract to negotiate protections for their work, for their artistry, for their humanity. Um, or if you're in an auto plant like the big three where, you know, auto workers were saying, you know what? These companies have been making billions of dollars. They've not been sharing the wealth with the people who create those profits, the workers on the line. Um, so they stood up and, uh, went out on strike. And you've seen it all across the country because, you know, people are starting to say, we're tired of just being called essential one minute through the pandemic and then being treated as expendable the next.
Jessica:
And I'm glad that people realize that they don't have to just sit in grin and bear it anymore. And so, kind of with that in mind, why do y'all think that unions are especially important for women in your personal experience, in your opinion, in your data? Like, I am very interested 'cause we had the law center, we've been pushing this campaign about how unions are good for women and they're good for everybody, but especially as all of us are women here and have dealt with unions in various capacities, what do y'all think?
JesIca:
For me personally, like I could put women, I am a woman, hear me roar, but there is as a whole having independence, right? We are all strong women, women are really coming into themselves. I feel as the years continue to go on and being able to be self-sufficient and being able to support your family is huge. If you look back throughout the generations and the years, right? A lot of times women stayed home or, you know, they will raise the kids, obviously, yeah, but not every woman wants to do that. Or maybe they don't even have kids, but they wanna actually Mm-Hmm.
Liz:
Let's just take a moment, Jesica, and just say, as a tradeswoman, you're a badass sister because, um, it's a tough business. And to be an ironworker, you have to know how to weld. And, um, you're working with, you know, obviously steel and infrastructure and can't be afraid of heights. And, you know, there's so many things that make that a really tough industry for women. And you are defying the odds. And I just wanna say thank you for taking a risk, but, uh, Jesica mentioned that, you know, being in the union gives her security, gives her the ability to feel protected. Um, you know, whether that's with good healthcare, good wages, retirement security, pay transparency, and equal pay for equal work. I always say, if you want equal pay, join a union because your union contract is what determines the pay no matter who you are or where you come from. So this, uh, also protection against discrimination and harassment. Yes, we have laws, but as we know, those laws are often not enforced. The union can be the enforcer. So if you are on a job site where there's discrimination and harassment taking place, you have your union to be your advocate. If you're afraid to go to HR, and we know many women are, uh, afraid to file complaints because they feel they'll be retaliated against. The union protects you in that way. So I think there's just this notion, the baseline notion of the power of collective action and that unions for women are the best protection in all aspects of employment, let alone looking at kind of the ability to upskill and, you know, get to that next job that you wanna get to and have a real plan for your future. Um, we think the union is, is really the best path for women. Uh, and I think we're now at officially half the labor movement is women. I think a lot of people have a stereotype that we are pretty male dominated, but that is changing. And we are now the largest organization of working women in the country with six and a half million women in the labor movement.
Jesica:
Wow. That gave me chills.
Jessica:
That's incredible. Yeah. That the, we're breaking, we're breaking so many walls and boundaries and barriers it feels like. But in terms of who benefits and who is fighting for unions, it's the, it's us. We are fighting for us, we're taking care of us. And that's just so reassuring to know.
Liz:
And we're fighting for those who aren't in a union because that rising tide that lifts all boats, you know, if we're negotiating, um, you know, childcare investments through our contracts, those employers end up raising the bar for, you know, employers across an entire community. And a lot of those other employers who wanna compete for the best workers have to do the same. So there is a ripple effect to what a union can negotiate in, in the contracts. And we are seeing more and more women getting on those bargaining ucommittees to make sure that we have protections for, uh, contraception and reproductive healthcare and in this era of attacks, as we know on a woman's right to control her own body and where to go for reproductive healthcare. Um, to have that union contract guarantee that Right. And access to those benefits is very much, um, a relief I would say for a lot of our workers who, um, are, are also fighting for that same protection for other women in their communities.
Jessica:
Undeniably the impact is felt everywhere. And with that, because we're seeing, um, more stories and like concern about union busting. We're seeing it at Amazon, we're seeing it at Starbucks, we're seeing it at a lot of major corporations and organizations. And from y'all's perspective, what would y'all say to workers and organizers who are facing these union bsting cast tactics who are being pulled in those rooms, like you were talking about Liz and being told not to form unions who are being fear mongered into not acting in their best interest.
Liz:
I would say hold the line. Uh, one of my favorite Tom Morello's songs, uh,
Jesica:
Right. So a lot of people are driven by fear when, because I've been placed on projects where they mandatory they were non-union companies, but they had to, maybe they were working on a school or a high school or a state job that they were mandatory to have that work to bring on union. They had to hire union. And I remember getting sent out and they were like, Hey, we want you to try to, you know, get these guys to come union. And so of course I am very high energy and I wanna know all the things. And I remember talking to them, and one of the things was that they couldn't understand how to pay dues to, to work, right? Like they had to pay all this stuff, pay all this stuff. And I said, okay. And because they've been working with the same company, they're, you know, in their twenties, they've been there since high school, right? So they feel like they have job security, but what happens if this company goes belly up?
Jessica:
Mmm.
Jesica:
I said, then what, what are, what are you gonna do? Like I said, I hear you with that, but you, if you understood all of the benefits, I said, what about your medical, your dental, your vision? You know, all of the things that, you know, I am so grateful for. Like with our benefits, there's so many benefits that I have to where like things that real life happens that unless you got Aflac, you're kind of up a creek. I honestly feel like it is not really, they're confused or they don't have the knowledge full understanding. They can only go off of maybe what they heard by maybe somebody that they admire or look up to with companies trying to do this. Like what you were talking about, Liz, I was like, what the heck? People are, they're going to the extreme to keep people separated. And that is because they're strength in numbers and that is what the union offers us. And so if they deny and keep the separation, then they don't feel the power of the strength. And that is why I feel like they are doing that is because of fear.
Jessica:
Um, my last question for y'all is, do y'all have any advice for people who want to unionize and or for people who want to support unions? Like how can people try to lead or live like a life that is like pro-union and, and support of the people that are actively facing, like these union busting situations? Um, people who've never even thought about starting a union at their job before. Um, what tips do you have?
Jesica:
Oh, that's all you, Liz
Liz:
Well, you can jump in here too. I would say know your rights, first of all, that you have a right to form a union, uh, and have a free choice without interference. And a lot of people don't realize that when the first thing they, uh, encounter is a hostile company response. You know, the minute the word gets out there, oh my gosh, they're talking about forming a union. It's really amazing the wall of, uh, opposition that they start running into. So it takes an act of courage and heroism again, because the laws are so flawed, and we're working now to change that. But for those who see the wave of momentum, who see that, especially for workers of color who have been on the sidelines in the past, having access to good high wage, highly skilled jobs, this is the opportunity. Now is the moment. I mean, I look at Jesica and women can write their ticket in construction and often have not seen themselves in those jobs in the past because, you know, it's always been a perception or a stereotype. Um, and so I would say that for those who wanna join a union, know your rights. Obviously, if you're connected to a union in your community, um, you can lean on them for support and guidance and resources to help get you there. And of course, our website, aflcio.org, you can, uh, find also access to tools and information, uh, because we want folks to take advantage of this momentum that we're seeing. Um, and you can form a union in any type of job. And I think that's also a, a stereotype that you have to be working in heavy industry or, um, you know, that it's only for certain types of jobs. That is not the case. We have video game workers who are organizing at Microsoft. You have museum workers, cultural workers in Philadelphia Museum of Art that just joined their local AFSCME union. Nothing is off limits. And I would say, you know, follow your desire for change and, you know, really see the union as the pathway to get there. And in the process you'll experience this, this feeling of solidarity that is really hard to explain because when workers come together, they have more power. And certainly with all the change that we're seeing on the horizon for the work of the future with technology and climate change and all the disruptions we're facing, to have that warm blanket of solidarity around you, there's nothing like it.
Jesica:
That was, that was amazing. That knowledge to former union. I mean, I'm learning so much even here now because I just kind of found it right. It found me honestly and saved my life. But like Liz mentioned, know your rights, but also know your worth. Because honestly, when I, when I was just listening to you, Liz, I'm like, dang, that is so, so real. Like I, when you said like workers at Microsoft and gamers and things like that, I'm like, why not? Why not? Because I honestly feel like there's that prejudgment or whatever the word is. Or maybe that assumption that if you're union, then you are a blue collar out there busting your butt, right? Instead of really learning and knowing, like you said, the laws and knowing what you deserve. Because I honestly feel like with, like you mentioned with the, um, union busters, right, coming for you, that is the corporations, right? Not wanting to pay you your worth and not wanting to have any, the people that are making them rich to answer to, because we're all replaceable, right? Especially in a situation like that. Like when I mentioned I hadn't been looking for a job. It didn't matter if I got laid off. I was back to work whenever I was ready to. But how many people non-union can really say that you're out searching, like people are hungry, searching for work, a resume after resume, I can't find a job. All of the things. But if you're unionized and you're able to stand together personally from experience, it's a no brainer. It just really is. Kep fighting the good fight. That's my advice.
Jessica:
Jesica, Liz, thank y'all so much for coming and for showing us the importance of the union difference.
Lark (36:34):
Hearsay is a Wonder Media network production in partnership with the National Women's Law Center. It is hosted and produced by Jessica Baskerville, Lark Lewis and Hillary Woodward. Our producers are Taylor Williamson and Abby Delk. Jenny Kaplan is our executive producer, and Maddie Foley is our editor Show Art by Andrea Sumner.
BLOOPER:
Lark:
Obviously I'm also a Union Nepo baby. Um, my dad
Hilary:
That's like literally the opposite of what a union is
Lark:
But I am, um, that's what I'm self claiming.